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Mike_Cirba

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #125 on: August 11, 2007, 01:09:59 PM »
Can someone tell me what an access whore is?  On one level I think it's an ironic question, because I don't think there's a single person here who hasn't benefitted by playing courses they likely would never have had there not been a GolfClubAtlas.

However I do think a couple of practices are unseemly and should be discouraged here, and if someone is an incorrigible violator, then they should be asked to leave if everyone (or Ran) feels it's appropriate.

1) Asking others for access to their club without first creating some type of friendship or social relationship based on common interests and camaraderie...not just on wanting to play the member's club...  Such common interest friendships almost always end up with an invite from the member anyway.

Actually, inviting oneself to someone else's club is almost always bad form, but I don't think there is one person here who if they found out their dentist belonged to Augusta National wouldn't at least bring up the subject.

2) Asking others to get them access to clubs that the person is not a member of.   This really often puts the person in a bad position because he is then being asked to bring in a third person who will usually know nothing about the requestor.

3) Any person who would barter providing access for purely financial business reasons, either directly or strongly implied or suggested.   As in, "hey I can get you on xxx club, but how bout throwing a quarter mil of business at me this year."

If someone is feeling constantly pestered by someone, then they should identify the offender to Ran privately, who can then take whatever action he deems appropriate.  

I think the rest of it we can work out ourselves like gentlemen.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 01:24:38 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #126 on: August 11, 2007, 01:24:20 PM »
Frankly Mike, I've been guilty of both 1) and 2) above on rare occasions.  

What I find sad is the "holier than thou" posture taken by more than a few on this site when ancedotes to the contrary routinely circulate behind their backs.  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike_Cirba

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #127 on: August 11, 2007, 01:25:36 PM »
Frankly Mike, I've been guilty of both 1) and 2) above on rare occasions.  

What I find sad is the "holier than thou" posture taken by more than a few on this site when ancedotes to the contrary routinely circulate behind their backs.  

Mike


Mike,

I'd ask the first person who hasn't done either 1 or 2 or both to step forward and identify themselves.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #128 on: August 11, 2007, 01:27:26 PM »
Mike,

I should add that my comment was in no way directed at you.

Cheers.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike_Cirba

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #129 on: August 11, 2007, 01:46:50 PM »
Mike

Ditto, my friend.   Let he who is without sin....

I should have added to my list above anyone who is in anyway rude to host or staff, doesn't follow known club rules, embarrasses or stiffs his host or staff, or acts like a jerk or baby on the golf course.   That person should not be excommunicated here necessarily, but perhaps a sand wedge between the eyes would work.

John Kavanaugh

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #130 on: August 11, 2007, 02:02:19 PM »
Frankly Mike, I've been guilty of both 1) and 2) above on rare occasions.  

What I find sad is the "holier than thou" posture taken by more than a few on this site when ancedotes to the contrary routinely circulate behind their backs.  

Mike


Mike,

I'd ask the first person who hasn't done either 1 or 2 or both to step forward and identify themselves.


I step forward.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #131 on: August 11, 2007, 02:14:30 PM »
I step forward as well.

Mike_Cirba

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #132 on: August 11, 2007, 02:23:07 PM »
I had no doubt of that, John.

Too bad Diogenes didn't run into you.  ;)  

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #133 on: August 11, 2007, 02:25:01 PM »
Frankly Mike, I've been guilty of both 1) and 2) above on rare occasions.  

What I find sad is the "holier than thou" posture taken by more than a few on this site when ancedotes to the contrary routinely circulate behind their backs.  

Mike


Mike,

I'd ask the first person who hasn't done either 1 or 2 or both to step forward and identify themselves.

Mike,

Although John has stepped forward before me, I will also come forward.  I have not asked for access or asked someone to get me access.  One exceptionally generous individual has provided access to 2 great courses on LI (through a charity tournament and some connections) and another great course in Nebraska, and a good friend originally met through generously provided access to his club in Denver.  I have also been hosted at a nice public course by a generous GCAer that was an assistant at the club.  In total, I have had access offered to me to 4 private clubs in the 4 years I have participated in GCA.  All in all, I've played many times more "GCA" rounds at public courses over "access rounds".  

I think there are many more participants here that fit my mold than the access hound mold.  They just may not be as visible or vocal on the discussion board.

Cheers,
Brad

Mike_Cirba

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #134 on: August 11, 2007, 02:35:50 PM »
Guys,

That's great...seriously.

I did some variation of 1 & 2 back about 7 years ago.

Tommy Naccarato was coming east and I knew he was scheduled to play at Merion (which I had walked and spied from the road numerous times before but had never played), which had been my all-time favorite course for sentimental and other reasons, and knowing Tommy pretty well online and on the phone for a number of years, I told him that if there was any way I could be part of his foursome I would be forever indebted.  It also happened to be Tommy's favorite course for similar sentimental reasons.

Of course, I knew when I asked him that he'd have to ask the member, or the friend of the member to make that happen.   And, he did.  Someone from this group who had played there regularly was kind and gracious enough to drop out and just walk along and watch us.

I still remember both of us with tears in our eyes as we met in the parking lot that day, more excited than little kids on Christmas morning at the prospect of playing that hallowed course.

I don't think I've had any other similar offenses over the years that I can recall, but bless me Father, because I too have sinned.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 02:38:38 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #135 on: August 11, 2007, 02:41:58 PM »
I should also mention that I've played a number of wonderful golf courses and made a whole bunch of new lifetime friends through the hospitality and goodwill of many folks on this board.   I think that's a wonderful thing.


Oh...and I still regularly play the local public courses.   That's a wonderful thing too.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 03:11:15 PM by MikeCirba »

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #136 on: August 11, 2007, 03:11:37 PM »
Let me add....for the most part, I don't have a problem with it.  But since you asked for those of us to step forward, I did.  Now I stand in solidarity with John...shaking our heads and judging you freeloading bastards. ;D

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #137 on: August 11, 2007, 03:28:17 PM »
I've never whored, but I have trespassed.....more than once.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 03:28:45 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

John Kavanaugh

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #138 on: August 11, 2007, 03:49:20 PM »
Let me add....for the most part, I don't have a problem with it.  But since you asked for those of us to step forward, I did.  Now I stand in solidarity with John...shaking our heads and judging you freeloading bastards. ;D

Ryan,

Now that we stand together against the great wrong I shall soon take you up on your offer to play the course that needs no mention.

I had never played a top 100 course before I joined one...I can't even count the number now..Thanks for all the invites guys.  I really need to get to Europe before those gents forget.

Mike Sweeney

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #139 on: August 11, 2007, 07:07:12 PM »
Well I broke a few rules to give access to my buddy Turboe. We had a group of 15 or so at Mountain Lake, and I heard that my GCA buddy Turboe (who I never met) was in town for the PGA show. Well, I called him from the 6th fairway on a cell phone (Rule #1 broken), then he wore a way too short jacket from his friend ((Rule #2), actually it fit but makes the story better if it was George Costanza short) to dinner at Mountain Lake. The next day, we finally played and I will never regret breaking a few rules for access.

What a shocker, Turboe is now taking a day off from work to host me at Musgrove Mill before the Dixie Cup.

If we all follow the example of GCAer and Golf Digest rater Turboe, JakaB would have absolutely nothing to talk about here at GCA. The man has played more courses than almost anyone here, and from my experience he is the model playing partner, and I wish there were more steel sales calls in New York City.

PS> If I am ever not flying over Southern Illinois or Southern Indiana, I am asking for access to VN!! ;)

John Kavanaugh

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #140 on: August 11, 2007, 07:24:37 PM »
Turboe has been very kind to me as well.  btw..Joined another course today and while having lunch met a member of Mountain Lake.  $65/month and they waived the initiation...Eat your heart out city boys.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 07:26:49 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike Sweeney

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #141 on: August 11, 2007, 07:28:15 PM »
Joined another course today and while having lunch met a member of Mountain Lake.

He must have missed the memo from the last Board Meeting! ;)

Kyle Harris

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #142 on: August 11, 2007, 08:20:13 PM »
Jeez Mike... guess you can get me for aiding and abetting...

and I thought I was an innocent!

It was the 4th fairway, by the way.

The best part of that day for me was riding up to you guys on the range and just saying, "Well, guess that answers that question."

 ;)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 08:24:39 PM by Kyle Harris »

Jim Nugent

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #143 on: August 12, 2007, 12:37:18 AM »
Back in late 1991, the first time I played Pelican Hills, the starter placed me with a guy who several holes into the round announced he was a member of ANGC.  From the way the staff was behaving -- and his own behavior -- I believed him.  For the next hour or so I tried to figure out if I could wangle an invitation from him.  Didn't ask or hint, though, and none came my way.

Here on GCA I haven't asked for access -- but since I haven't played for such a long time that's pretty easy in my case!

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #144 on: August 12, 2007, 08:32:26 PM »
Dave,
   Well, if one were to think this through more nefariously, I haven't exactly lived in or near places that are flush with exclusive, private clubs with awesome golf courses since being a GCAer.  If I lived in Cali or New Your{edit}York{edit} or Philly, maybe I wouldn't be so righteous (although Chicago isn't that far away now  :o ;) ).  That coupled with my relatively meager means to travel widely for the purposes of golf course architecture could explain why I'm not filling the connected GCAers PM boxes with access requests.  

FWIW, I'll gladly host any GCAer up at Greywalls that happens to be up there at the same time I am.  

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: August 12, 2007, 08:40:36 PM by Brad Swanson »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #145 on: August 13, 2007, 08:30:48 AM »

Jim,

     I had a similar experience once upon a time. The last time I played Karsten Creek (6 years or so ago) I was paired up with a gentlemen who claimed to be a member of Pine Valley (probably was) and for at least an hour  I just wanted to blurt out... PLEASE TAKE ME TO YOUR COURSE!!!!     ;D

     I didn't though... nice fella though and we had a very enjoyable round.

   

Michael Christensen

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #146 on: August 13, 2007, 06:41:16 PM »
have been lucky to play some top rated courses in the USA and have not had to ask once for access.....was playing with some other members and a guest at my club in CT...the subject of my parents living in Florida 6 months out of the year came up...guest said he was a member at a club in Juno Beach and offered an invite when I was visiting....now I play there 4 or 5 times during "the season"...it is fun to go there, but if I had to grovel for it I would just as well pay $$ and stay and play at the Breakers!

People asking for access or pressuring a member or a friend of a member for access makes my skin crawl.....I hope that is the prevailing thought for 99% on this board!

Whenever I have communicated with or met a fellow a GCAer in person, it has been a good experience.  Several have offered playing privileges and I cherish every day out playing golf.  I have also offered access to my private club (as of yet have not been taken up on it)...but I have no problem taking someone out to the 2nd best course in the New Haven area!

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #147 on: August 13, 2007, 11:27:12 PM »
In a forum like this I might learn that certain people are members of a course like CPC or Medinah, or seem to have the ability to gain fairly easy access to an NGLA or Sand Hills.  But since it is just something brought up in the course of a general discussion amongst a lot of people, and often mentioned in passing or to illustrate a point, I'm not going to seek out that person and ask for access to their course.  They haven't deliberately given me that information as an invitation, so it would be boorish of me to treat it as such.

But if I'm joined up with some guy at random (i.e., not a "friend of a friend" situation, just someone the starter happens to have me playing with) and he goes out of his way to mention that he's a member of PV or ANGC, you can be damn sure I'm not going to be shy about subtly (or attempting to seem subtle) inquiring about the possibility of playing there sometime.  After all, if the guy doesn't want to be bothered with that sort of thing, he can keep his damn mouth shut and quit bragging about his home course to total strangers! ;D

In that kind of situation I figure its sort of a "what have I got to lose?" sort of situation.  Though I have to say, since I have a sort of evil mind, if I was a member of such a club I might tell people about it and only invite those to play who are able to manage all 18 holes with me without asking for an invitation, just to be a contrary bastard ;)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #148 on: August 13, 2007, 11:50:20 PM »
I was recently fortunate enough to play a round at a private course on the top 100 US course list.  A friend knew someone that was willing to sponsor him, and I was lucky enough to be on my friend's "pick 3" list.

During the round, I played with two others I had not previously met.  I hit it off pretty well with one of the guys.  We started exchanging golf travel stories and talking about our favorite courses.  During the round, he brought up that he was about to join another unnamed private course and that I would be welcome to join him for a round if I made it back into town.  I thanked him and also told him that he was more than welcome to join me in my home town for some golf if he was in the area.

During the car ride home, it came up again in conversation that he was joining this particular club.  The other guy in the group, who had spent no time whatsoever during the past 6 hours attempting to build a relationship with the first gentleman in question (and had also just spent a fair amount of time on the course acting in a manner that would not make me comfortable inviting him to come out and play) pipes up and says, "I haven't played that course.  I'd love to come out and play with you some time - not to drop a hint or anything."

I was dumbfounded.  Perhaps I'm naive, but I'm surprised to learn that folks are actually taking this approach here.

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