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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2007, 03:06:02 PM »
Lester:

You just likened the ASGCA to a club.  Prepare for the wrath of Forrest!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #126 on: June 27, 2007, 03:14:47 PM »
Lester,

I always thought their priviosity was because they had privies.  Shows what I know. :D

Tom D is kinda right. As I was writing my response to Tony this morning, I was going to say something very close to what you did, but having defended the difference earlier between clubs and societies/trade associations earlier in the thread, I opted not to make that comparison.

That said, there is some relationship to any private group and they can set standards. Just because the membership processes may be similar doesn't mean we are just a private club.

BTW, I hope you did feel welcome to the group in Anaheim and Atlanta.  I prefer Forrest's gentler "plays well in the sandbox" name for the "asshole clause."

I agree with Tom - sometimes individuals and organizations mix like oil and water and just shouldn't get together.  That's just a fact of life, not a constitutional issue.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #127 on: June 27, 2007, 03:33:03 PM »
Tom,

You are right!  Forrest is going to excommunicate me.  Hope he is going to read this....

Jeff,

I felt very welcome and was generally surprised at the amount of "free speech" that was going on.  As you know, I really worked hard to get in the ASGCA and I'll be the first to encourage others to.  I really did not want to chime in because I don't use "plays well in the sandbox" as well as you and Forrest do.  However I feel compelled to remind people that disparaging remarks are made sometimes and you can rise above it.  

In my opinion, the ASGCA is about a body of work and the person behind that work.  We can evaluate that on an individual level and accept those who fit in.  It's not about limiting a persons rights.  It's about rights not limiting the person.  

Lester

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2007, 03:48:33 PM »
Lester,

Oh ASGCA has always had a lot of free speeches in the bar after the meeting and otherwise in private!  Discussing gca with others in the know is what its all about. And, of course, we can't discuss why Jack Nicklaus always turns his greens to the right (although he doesn't any more) without mentioning both Jack, and greens angling right can we?

I have had guys ask me why I did certain things, and vice versa, with others questions usually framed as "Why in the hell did you do......?

I once heard a member say (he thought I was out of ear shot) something about "those effen Brauer mounds." We had a nice little discussion about that and ridiculous small rumples in his greens.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2007, 04:19:17 PM »
Jeff:

Honest free speech and lies are two different worlds. Both the AIA and NPSE address this.

The AIA and NPSE say nothing about "self laudatory advertisement" or how someone can or cannot advertise except that their representations must be honest. That is different from "avoid self laudatory advertisement". Then the ASGCA lumps "self laudatory advertisement" in with “misleading, exaggerated and false”. Not very nice company.  

What is "self laudatory advertisement" and who will define it?

When have you crossed the line?

Can you write books criticizing contemporary golf projects and still be a member? Or does that fail to fall under self laudatory?

The ASGCA also claims in their code that members should uphold human rights. Is free speech not an equal first among those rights?

Lester:
Somewhere on GCA an ASGCA member has compared the ASGCA code to the AIA. And why not quote professional organizations? Why not compare standards? What is wrong with comparing?

What is it about mature adults in a competitive business that they cannot represent themselves honestly? There are millions on the line, and we must "avoid self laudatory advertisement" and avoid angering members to become a member? Wow.

Further, this is a discussion about free speech, and the role it plays in golf architecture. The ASGCA does not operate in a vacuum the last I could tell.

I also stated I believe any serious architect should become a member of an association, but they shouldn't have to check out their rights at the door, or years before joining. They shouldn't have to pander, saying things the members want to hear. How is a profession going to advance that way?

The "a-hole clause". You said it. As noted earlier, these rules are so malleable they can keep people out for what they say, not if they are competent. Anger a few choice people and "whoops...sorry...better luck next time."

Who suffers in such an environment? I believe I used the word timid. Not the ASGCA members, but in the end the competitive market, and most directly the investor.




« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 04:23:14 PM by Tony Ristola »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #130 on: June 27, 2007, 05:26:31 PM »
Tony,

"Ethics" is nothing more than making the personal choice of doing what your gut tells you is right, even when the law says other options are legal, or when you have an opportunity to score personal gain, even if no one else but you knew about it.  It usually means bending over backwards to ensure you don't inadvertantly hurt others through your actions for your own personal gain.

The reason most other gca's don't critique others work is because we have "walked in that man's shoes" and don't know what client decisions, budgets, and all the other things that affected the final project.  And, ASGCA also covers lies and speaking honestly, in briefer form than AIA.
The rationale behind NOT saying anything about others works is that in not knowing all of that, you run the real risk of speaking a lie, even if inadvertantly.

And, knowing all of the above, we do call for each of us to "respect other's work".  

Once again, you haven't answered my question as to whether you think you have a "right" to be a member of EIGCA or if any association has the right to set standards for membership, etc., but here are yet more, even knowing you will purposely NOT answer:

   Do you define ethics differently than above?

   Do you think free speech rights trump the human rights of   being treated by others the way you would want to be treated, hands down?

Once again, you claim the industry and the investor is "hurt" but offer no real proof of that claim.

And, once again, ASGCA does not use the phrase Self Laudatory Advertising in its code of ethics. You could look it up, but you don't.  I won't answer your repeatedly false premise questions, as there is nothing in the ASGCA code prevents an honest statement.  

Once again, you ignore my explanation of how we are trying in ASGCA membership process to eliminate both actual and percieved instances of improper rejection of members.  I acknowledge that when one has difficulty getting in, it can be quite painful and cause a different perception, but perception isn't always reality either - on the part of the society or on any one rejected member.

As to your "when have you crossed the line" questions, I have answered repeatedly - like many other judgements, its a consensus of opinion among your peers.  If 90% of architects think a particular statement is outside the bounds of professional behavior, then it probably is, whether you want to believe it or not.  How else would you judge, other than by consensus?  

As to critiquing contemporary projects in a book, I believe that the consensus among ASGCA would be very narrow or split.  However, I couldn't tell without taking a vote.  

And lastly, you once again repeat your mantra, ad nauseum, without adding anything new to the discussion.

If to you, all of the above qualifies as "checking your rights at the door" then I can only suggest as others have, that you remain a lone wolf.  Out of a world of 6 Billion people, it doesn't surprise me at all that there are some that just can't get along.

God, I need an Advil....... ;)



« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 05:28:15 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #131 on: June 27, 2007, 05:31:35 PM »
Tony,

Appearently you want to talk and not listen.  I'll give this one try, if you don't listen I will not try again.  

1. Don't compare the orgs because its a useless waste of time, they're different, that all there is to it.

2. I represent myself honestly, but not because of a rule, because thats the right thing to do.  Have I pissed off others?  You bet.  Have I taken the working class hero approach of who cares? No, Ive always tried to get better at conveying my thoughts responsibly.  You should HEAR that.

3. I'm excercising my free speech and telling you that you should HEAR yourself.  You come off as angry and insecure.  The ASGCA has nothing to do with that.

4. Never checked my rights or anything else at the door.  Never pandered to anyone.  This is all in your head.  Give me one REAL example (not inuendo) of someone in the ASGCA telling you to Watch yourself.  Just one.

5. The "A" hole clause pertains to life, not just the ASGCA.  You will get nowhere if you can't get past this silly idea that the ASGCA prohibits speech, it simply encourages manners.  

6. Who suffers?  You do.  If you don't get off of this notion that you have to rage against the machine to be heard.  BTW, your investors will ultimately leave you too because they will interpret your rage as lack of personal integrity and confidence in your own ability.  

That is my opinion, which the ASGCA does not govern or care about.  Free Speech is about responsible interaction with your subordinates, peers and superiors.  End of transmission.

Lester


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #132 on: June 27, 2007, 05:34:15 PM »
BTW,

Tony, as a new area of interest for me :), I have downloaded the Ethics Codes you suggest are better than ASGCA.  I will leave it to others to read the entire things, but here are a few clips from the Engineers code:

"Engineers shall not attempt to injure, maliciously or falsely, directly or indirectly, the professional reputation, prospects, practice, or employment of other engineers. Engineers who believe others are guilty of unethical or illegal practice shall present such information to the proper authority for action."

How is that different than ASGCA?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #133 on: June 27, 2007, 05:37:53 PM »
Lester,

Give em hell, buddy!  Well said, my friend.

We  make a good team, as Brian Phillips can attest (in the good way - on the golf course at Sand Hills.  Beer never tasted better, eh?)

But, I predict that will be your last transmission!  I on the other hand, have this strange compulsion.

Who says we can't break records here without TePaul and Pat Mucci? ;)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 05:38:19 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2007, 06:43:37 PM »
This may very well be the most bizarre, yet amusing thread I have ever read.

Bravo everyone. Bravo.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #135 on: June 27, 2007, 06:44:53 PM »
BTW,

Tony, as a new area of interest for me :), I have downloaded the Ethics Codes you suggest are better than ASGCA.  I will leave it to others to read the entire things, but here are a few clips from the Engineers code:

"Engineers shall not attempt to injure, maliciously or falsely, directly or indirectly, the professional reputation, prospects, practice, or employment of other engineers. Engineers who believe others are guilty of unethical or illegal practice shall present such information to the proper authority for action."

How is that different than ASGCA?


Answer: It's not.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #136 on: June 27, 2007, 08:19:13 PM »
Well I'll be....when I left here after posting about dawn....no not Miss Dawn, who is not here to wake up with [no sniggers Brauer]...but the other brightening of the day :)...I left really thinking that mine might be the last post standing...but after having returned and showering off all the dust/grime and opening a beer, its like wow...maybe this thread shouldn't stop because you boys write some good stuff. In fact I just had to open another beer, its that thought provoking....I am truly envious, you must all have great office jobs ;).

I like the part about what really happens in the ASGCA bar meetings, which is one reason I want Doak in there so we can corner him.....good stuff guys! [I guess Forrest must be working too as we have not heard a peep].



« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 03:59:26 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #137 on: June 28, 2007, 12:40:08 AM »
How is that different from the ASGCA?

What they don't have and the ASGCA does is a limit on free speech.
"Self laudatory advertisement".
What is it?
Who defines it?
Is it good for the industry and investor?

There has been a lot of talk but nobody has answered these simple questions.


We're on a rain delay...so breakfast won't taste quite so good.



06:30 and the operators waiting out the showers are always good for a joke.

Call Jim.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 01:21:57 AM by Tony Ristola »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #138 on: June 28, 2007, 04:20:53 AM »
Tony.....can't seem to read the message....but nice equipment....does it all run?

Down where I am we use the 3 to 1 rule....three pieces of equipment on site for every one that works.

Well, we did have 2 out of 4 pans working briefly, but one was taken to a Fazio job and the rest broke down and sat in the yard for two weeks.....I think they are somehow Unionized.

So two more were taken away, and now we have one.

I think of him as the 'little pan that could' as he circles around the site.

Our shapers have worked out a system where they alternate  days sitting in their trucks when they have to share a dozer.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 04:27:22 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #139 on: June 28, 2007, 04:38:40 AM »
Paul,

Feel for ya.

It all runs. D6R, D6NXL, 3 dumpers, CAT 330D, Volvo EC210BLC, as well as smaller stuff; loader, tractors, backhoes etc. It all stays busy. Last week was well over 80 hours, the guys working double shifts. Now to do something about the weather because when this loess gets wet, it's like driving in snow; slippery. It dries out fast, but with the rain we've had, not fast enough. They guys are done until Monday. So you get to enjoy my company now and again. :)

The Volvo has been a bit like a sardine can, having been down for about 10 hours the last month, but that should be 100% rectified in the near future. We've got a mechanic on the way to make sure everything stays working, and as I asked one guy who knows him if he's any good, he had a great line..."Good? He can make dynamite from...__it."

I'll trade you a machine that works for some Mexican food.
Deal?

The message is an inside joke. What's inside will stay inside; It says: "Call Jim."  Sorry...cannot elaborate, but it's funnier than hell. :) :) :)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 04:45:33 AM by Tony Ristola »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #140 on: June 28, 2007, 07:27:55 AM »
Paul may be in Mexico, but I am the one waking up feeling the need to crap my pants....... ;)

Tony, please see my reply No. 69 on Page 2, where I posted verbatim the ASGCA Code of Ethics.  There is no mention of Self Laudatory Advertising. You are basing this entire argument on a purposeful LIE. >:(

Please see my other posts where I have answered each of your questions, albeit it is clear never to your satisfaction.

Since you are willing to repeatedly make false public statements, IMHO, it appears that you are either:

1. Not an ethical professional, based on the canons of any professional code out there,

2. Possibly delusional,

3. Or, love to yank my chain!  :)

But, in any event, I am not going to continue this useless line of posts, having said all I can say. ::)

I did enjoy the philosophical idea of debating ethics, and have done so previously with Tom MacWood, but this is just too much.  At some point, probably long ago in this thread, there is a line to cross between defending ASGCA and giving cred to a false position like yours. ???

Have a good day.  I can certainly understand "breakfast not tasting good" as we have seen continual rain here in Texas that has delayed all three projects I have going on around the state. :-\
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 07:29:24 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #141 on: June 28, 2007, 07:42:15 AM »
Jeff:

I don't have the ASGCA fax with me, but I'll scan it when I get back in a bunch of months.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #142 on: June 28, 2007, 07:49:53 AM »
Hark.....what light through yonder window breaks?

I'm getting out of here boys.....have a good day.
I plan to..... :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What has the ASGCA done for students?
« Reply #143 on: June 29, 2007, 05:59:39 PM »
Jeff:

I don't have the ASGCA fax with me, but I'll scan it when I get back in a bunch of months.

Tony,

No need. I got an older copy of our by laws and code of ethics out of the file.  In 2004, the by laws committee combined our code of ethics and "guidelines for professional practice" into the ethics code.  You are indeed right that the old "guidelines for professional practice" had the term "self laudatory" in it, but I missed it looking only at the "Code of Ethics" and was wrong to suggest you might be purposely untruthful, even if you were ignoring the current code in your arguments.  

I agree that it is a hard to interpret phrase, and certainly no one who advertises would do so in any other way, at least intentionally. :)  The rest of the wording, regarding exagerated, misleading, or false publicity stays the same in both versions.  We review those periodically, like all of us review specs, because the world does change, and that phrase was parsed out.  I vaguely recall some discussions, but certainly some gca's were advertising, including some of our big wigs, and it seemed time to let be reflected in the code, since it had long been a practice in the field.

That said, I will leave it to others to determine whether your objections to ASGCA are valid either before or after the word change, or based on your experiences with EIGCA, which is not a related organization.  I still try to live by the code of ethics laid out, because I DO believe we all have more obligations to the profession, public and environment than simply getting the next job at any cost, and urge all professionals to do likewise.  (Of course, none of us is perfect, and probably all have at least one less than stellar moment we would LOVE to have back)

Make it a great weekend.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 06:05:35 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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