[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy:

You - and seemingly others - keep thinking I'm basing all of this on what occurred Sunday afternoon.  How many times, and how many different ways, can I say that not only did I have a very nice enjoyable comfortable round on Monday morning, but I am absolutely NOT basing it on my play at all, but rather on some serious contemplation, my knowledge of how high handicappers play, and what I also witnessed from others?

Please, again, this is getting trying.  The privileges of Emperor status only extend so far.  

Stone Eagle is indeed full of fun shots into and around the greens - for the better player, or for the creative or lucky lesser player.  I still can't see how my Dad - or any other average player with handicap over 18 - could have much fun there.  Sure some like Steve Sailer can.  But most won't.   And I've given my reasons why.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
I just find it impossible how you can think and speak for high-handicappers of the world. Let them judge or speak for themselves. As far as a low, high-handicapper is concerned, I can say that your thoughts are just not that accurate.

That's my honest opinion. It's also an opinion I've formed after six rounds there, as well as seeing the course get built.

Hammy, I knew you were a Golf Digest Panelist in hiding!

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy:

Good point.  I ought not to speak for the high handicappers of the world any more.  But still, I think I can to some extent... because once again, I have been one, and I continue to witness a lot of their play.  So my opinions of how they fare - and the frustrations they face - come not only from what I see, but from what I've experienced.  I'd say these opinions have more merit than you allow.  But fair enough.

And my opinions on Stone Eagle are obviously based on just the two rounds.  I supposed that makes yours three times as good as mine.  That's better than I usually get, so I'll take it.

 

So we shall agree to disagree.  

I will say this:  let's play a round someday with my Dad and the aforementioned 21 handicapper.  Not only would that be a dream foursome for me, but well... you'd come to understand better how some courses just don't work for some players, I'd hope.

TH

[ed_getka]

I still haven't read this whole thing, but I have work to do and just have a couple of comments. I really enjoyed the trip and my hats off to Tommy. I preferred Plantation over the Palms (personal preference, architecture is a wash for the most part). I vastly preferred Stone Eagle to either P courses.
    I find blaming heat and fatigue for someone's opinion of a course to be pretty pathetic. Some people will love what they saw and some won't, but they are voicing an opinion. I will voice my opinion in detail later, and the heat and fatigue are NOT a factor at all, so don't even bring it up.

[Sean Leary]

Tieing in what Tom Brown said, I found the well placed centerline bunkers to be provide interest for the better players on such wide open fairways, particularly the downhill tee shots.  I found that I liked the holes the best when tee and green were at a similar elevation, either traversing the slope (8, 15 ) or where there was a downhill tee shot and an uphill second (6, 13).

A few of the downhill par 4's and 3's seemed similar to me, which happens on desert courses built on such severe sites.
I think that the greens were the highlight, and if they wanted, it could be set up very tough if they wanted to to challenge even a very good player..

[Mike Hendren]

With the exception of Fleisher's Folly, nary a photograph?

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike, I was wondering about that also... people sure were taking pictures... not me though.  Here's hoping some get posted.

TH

[Evan Fleisher]

With the exception of Fleisher's Folly, nary a photograph?

Mike

It was the only golf worth "viewing"...Ha!

I have some nice shots at home, just have not had the time to get them posted online yet.

[John_Cullum]

For those who question why the heat affects the player's assessment of Stone Eagle, you have to realize it was extreme. We rushed over there after a morning round (also played in some heat) and were quickly fed and then sent out to tee off.

Most everyone I spoke with had the same reaction, they were very fatigued during the first 6 or 8 holes they played, and then started feeling better. If it had been 5 degrees hotter, we probably could not have safely played golf. It was really pushing it to be out there Sunday afternoon, but it was doable. Conditions were bordering on impairing judgment, so we get a pass for factoring that in.

[rjsimper]

From the yardage book-

"I knew right away that it would be the most complicated project we would ever build, but that it had the potential to be the most thrilling course in the desert" -Tom Doak

Did he succeed in this stated goal?

I say yes (tempered by the fact that I have not played anywhere near to all of the courses in the desert...but of those I have played, this is far and away the most thrilling).

[Tom Huckaby]

From the yardage book-

"I knew right away that it would be the most complicated project we would ever build, but that it had the potential to be the most thrilling course in the desert" -Tom Doak

Did he succeed in this stated goal?

I say yes (tempered by the fact that I have not played anywhere near to all of the courses in the desert...but of those I have played, this is far and away the most thrilling).

Great question.
I haven't played all that many courses in the desert.
The only one that I'd say comes close to SE in terms of being "thrilling" is PGA West-Stadium.  That is one thrilling course.

But it's also meant for low handicappers.

God I should have left that out... couldn't resist.  

[rjsimper]

Here are the few that I took, in addition to Evan's video

These are from Sunday afternoon, as I was unable to play Monday.

Par 3 7th - 218 yards



The view from behind the 7th tee, and the "intelligence test" goggles



I think this is 9...9 and 11 kind of blur together for me



11 - Par 4 - 404 yards (one of the few tee shots that made me sweat)



Par 3 12th - 153 yards



Par 5 13th - 548 yards



Par 4 16th - 352 yards

[John_Cullum]

Thanks for posting those Ryan. I can't believe we've gotten 5 pages of this thread and no one has mentioned those golf carts at Stone Eagle. I am at a loss for words on those.

[Tom Huckaby]

Cool pics Ryan - thanks for posting.  And I'm sick of all the negative - not usually my bag - so let's accentuate the positive.  Those are all pretty darn thrilling golf holes.  

Curious how you - as a young, limber long hitter - played 16.  Did you try and get it close to the green?  Great hole for that... I figure it would be doable for a stick like you... I played it once with the hybrid trying to stay short of the bunkers, once with the driver, both worked ok.  That's a very cool green, also...

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks for posting those Ryan. I can't believe we've gotten 5 pages of this thread and no one has mentioned those golf carts at Stone Eagle. I am at a loss for words on those.

They were top-notch, weren't they?
BTW, did you notice that the tees provided, and the caddie uniforms, and the carts, and basically anything given any color, was all that brown and tan chameleon blend into the desert motif?  I thought that was pretty cool.

[rjsimper]

Cool pics Ryan - thanks for posting.  And I'm sick of all the negative - not usually my bag - so let's accentuate the positive.  Those are all pretty darn thrilling golf holes.  

Curious how you - as a young, limber long hitter - played 16.  Did you try and get it close to the green?  Great hole for that... I figure it would be doable for a stick like you... I did it once with the hybrid, once with the driver, both worked ok.  That's a very cool green, also...

TH

16 was one of the few holes where I pulled out the yardage book before playing the hole - I read about the moving up of the tee to tempt the longer player to drive the green...but you know what, I just didn't see it.  I even talked to Jason about it and unless I was playing a fourball match where my partner had already either driven the green or at least put a ball in fairway position A, there's no real way I see taking a run at that green.  The tightening of the neck of it in the landing zone brings all the big numbers into play and there's no room for a bail out in any direction (like say, 3 or 12 at Rustic Canyon).  

I'm sure someone with a more consistently accurate driver than myself would get it there and maybe take the risk, but I didn't see it being worthwhile.

I popped a 5 wood into the fairway and had something like 90 yards to the pin - I like my chances from that yardage.

[rjsimper]

They were top-notch, weren't they?
BTW, did you notice that the tees provided, and the caddie uniforms, and the carts, and basically anything given any color, was all that brown and tan chameleon blend into the desert motif?  I thought that was pretty cool.

You want evidence of how they blend?  Check out my picture of the 11th - if you glance by quickly, you can't even see the cart on the left (and I bet you never saw the one further up the path on the right)

I mean, upholstered embroidered logo seats and a porsche-style hood-trunk for the icechest?  Come on now...

[Tom Huckaby]

Ryan - that makes great sense, and as your caddie I completely agree with the play.  

Of course driving the green was completely out of the picture for a guy like me - I was just wondering if it would be a real option for the big hitters.  I kinda thought it was just a bit too far to make it viable..

Would moving up to a 320 or so tee change things?  300?  

Just curious.  I really liked this hole - one of my faves on the course.  And that's even without driving the green as a option in my universe...

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

They were top-notch, weren't they?
BTW, did you notice that the tees provided, and the caddie uniforms, and the carts, and basically anything given any color, was all that brown and tan chameleon blend into the desert motif?  I thought that was pretty cool.

You want evidence of how they blend?  Check out my picture of the 11th - if you glance by quickly, you can't even see the cart on the left (and I bet you never saw the one further up the path on the right)

I mean, upholstered embroidered logo seats and a porsche-style hood-trunk for the icechest?  Come on now...

WHOA!

I did miss the cart completely the first look....

That is really cool.  Of course we're being dorky to mention it at all, but that's never stopped me.  Little things like this are fun.

 

[John_Cullum]

Those carts are avilable with a lot of options we didn't get:

diamond in the back, sunroof top...TV antenna in the back, gangster whitewalls

[rjsimper]

Ryan - that makes great sense, and as your caddie I completely agree with the play.  

Of course driving the green was completely out of the picture for a guy like me - I was just wondering if it would be a real option for the big hitters.  I kinda thought it was just a bit too far to make it viable..

Would moving up to a 320 or so tee change things?  300?  

Just curious.  I really liked this hole - one of my faves on the course.  And that's even without driving the green as a option in my universe...

TH

I thought it was a good hole as well, but let the earth shake beneath my feet for a roundabout agreement with you here, but the reason I wouldn't go at it is not for the distance, but the severity of the punishment near the green (which is probably appropriate)

It's an option for the low handicapp long-hitter with supreme confidence in the driver - and frankly, I wouldn't want to see it shortened because at 320 with the slopes a 3 wood is a possible play.  I think the hole plays about 20% shorter than the card, so at 320 or 300 yards I think that gives the advantage to the guy who hits it 250 and straight because he can bunt it onto the green (and I don't like giving those short-knockers an advantage on a driveable par 4)

So in conclusion - I see it as an hole with two options, one of which is the play only for a reckless, desperate, or completely care-free player.  But looking back on it, 350 seems an appropriate length.

[Mike Hendren]

Sarge,

You are one hip-hop hillbilly.  Were you "digging the scene with a gangster lean?"

My man.

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Ryan:

First, audible yuks for the "let the earth shake" line...  

But again that makes sense to me.  But dammit, you just prevented me - one of those short-knocking usually straight 250 bunters - from ever getting a crack at that green.  You selfish bastard!  

But you're right.  Guys like me ought not to be able to drive par fours.  That's not golf.

I do like holes though where golfers not as smart as you do get the temptation.  You've resisted it admirably on 16... Do you think other long-knockers give that a run?

See, that's what I'm hoping for.  I like a hole where a man can realize his limitations, play smart, and defeat the reckless.  16 I think plays out that way - even though it wouldn't if I were playing you, I think it would if I were playing other long-knockers.  Whaddya think?

TH

[rjsimper]

Well, let's use a representative sampling - I think Tom Brown said he didn't get the temptation -

How bout Tom Renli and Jeff Fortson - either of those two take a crack at the green either day?

Sean Leary?  Who else hits it far?

[Sean Leary]

Ryan:

First, audible yuks for the "let the earth shake" line...  

But again that makes sense to me.  But dammit, you just prevented me - one of those short-knocking usually straight 250 bunters - from ever getting a crack at that green.  You selfish bastard!  

But you're right.  Guys like me ought not to be able to drive par fours.  That's not golf.

I do like holes though where golfers not as smart as you do get the temptation.  You've resisted it admirably on 16... Do you think other long-knockers give that a run?

See, that's what I'm hoping for.  I like a hole where a man can realize his limitations, play smart, and defeat the reckless.  16 I think plays out that way - even though it wouldn't if I were playing you, I think it would if I were playing other long-knockers.  Whaddya think?

TH

I tried to goad Tom Brown into hitting driver the second day, as he is long enough to get there. Alas, he laid up and made birdie. John VB came pretty close to driving it as well.

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