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Patrick_Mucci

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #100 on: November 22, 2003, 12:56:40 PM »
Tom Doak,
Quote from: Tom_Doak on November 21, 2003, 08:25:08 PM
Pat:  My last point above wasn't a reflection on Atlantic City, or on any project in particular.  It was general in nature.

How were your comments general in nature when you responded to Kelly Blake Moran and said:

" Don't take me wrong though, you are probably the most idealistic of any architect who participates here, and we would all like to see what you really want to buiild, instead of what Pat Mucci wants you to build !"

That seems pretty specific to me.
Why bring me into this ?
Kelly and I have no current conflicts, personally or architecturally

AND, why allege that I brought the 16th hole at GCGC to the public when it was another member, rgkeller, who initiated the threads on GCGC and brought them public ??

If something is on your mind, don't beat around the bush or take oblique shots at me, address me straight up !

Billy Ziobro worked for Arthur Goldberg and was responsible for the project after Rees's dismissal.  Billy tried to soften some of Arthur's thoughts, as did I, but you understood the working relationship that existed, and what Arthur wanted as communicated by Billy and Arthur.

As I said, the project turned out nicely, but you NEVER had a free hand to do whatever you wanted.
You know that, and I know that.
So why take a shot at me, if Kelly and I were in a similar situation ?
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TEPaul

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #101 on: November 22, 2003, 02:07:51 PM »
Would you guys just look at this post from Pat Mucci:

Pat to Tom Doak with a quote from Doak about Kelly Blake Moran;

"Tom Doak,
Quote from: Tom_Doak on Yesterday at 08:21:54am
Don't take me wrong, though; you are probably the most idealistic of any architect who participates here, and we would all like to see what you really want to build, instead of what Pat Mucci wants you to build!

And Pat then asks Doak in that post;
 
"Were you refering to what Arthur Goldberg directed you to build at Atlantic City Country Club?"

Do you believe this guy? Tom Doak makes a remark about Kelly Blake Moran, what he wants to build as opposed to what someone else such as Pat Mucci wants him to build and Pat asks Tom if he's referring to ACCC and Goldberg. Did it sound lke he was referring to ACCC or Goldberg, Pat, if there wasn't a single word about ACCC or Goldberg?

And then take a look at Pat's post #103. There's zero logic there, no reasoning whatsoever just a man who jumps from one unrelated thing to another.

How can anyone reason with a man like that much less have an intelligent conversation with him?

It's as if you said to Pat at Midnight;

"Don't get me wrong Pat, but it looks pretty dark out there to me."

To which Pat would probably ask something like;

"Were you refering to what Arthur Goldberg directed you to build at Atlantic City Country Club?"

How can anyone deal with a man like this?  ;)


 

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Patrick_Mucci

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #102 on: November 22, 2003, 05:44:00 PM »
TEPaul,

You just don't get it.

Tom Doak referenced Kellly having a free hand to build what he wanted, and not something I wanted.

Why he interjected my name is beyond me,

But, since I didn't want Tom Doak to feel this type of arrangement never happens, I reminded him of his own experiences at Atlantic City, where he was not given carte blanche to do whatever he wanted.

Actions speak louder then words.

If you don't see or understand the point, that's your problem.

P.S.  Tom Doak doesn't need you to answer for him.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2003, 06:00:37 PM by Patrick_Mucci »
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TEPaul

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #103 on: November 22, 2003, 06:30:37 PM »
Pat:

Yeah, I got it alright but I'm sure I'm the only one to get it. I'm the only one who really understands the interworkings of one of the most labyrinthianly weird minds in existence---yours. Never a dull moment--that's for sure!   ;)
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Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #104 on: November 22, 2003, 08:19:51 PM »
One of Brian Phillips earlier post about the sheep in Norway made me question: To be a minimalist design, would the course require only minimal effort to maintain? Or could you have a minimalist course that requires more than minimal effort to maintain (on both a daily and longer term basis)? Possibly even a minimal design that requires maximum effort to maintain.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #105 on: November 22, 2003, 10:23:33 PM »
Geez, Patrick, lighten up.

I only referenced your name in my "note to Kelly" because you are the one who is always saying that the architect has to do the client's bidding.  We all know you aren't really anyone's client.

As to Garden City, I simply got wrong that you started that post -- I confused it with your post about Brad Klein and Garden City that you did start.  I regret the error.

As for Atlantic City, I have no idea who was behind the scenes, and it doesn't really matter.  Whose idea was it to change 11 into a long par four?  Whose idea was it to create a new short par 4 for 14, a new par 3 for 15, and shorten the 18th hole to a par 4?  Those were my ideas, not Mr. Goldberg's.  Yes, they had a list of stuff they wanted me to accomplish, and it was more specific than most clients we work for.  And yes, we did back off some of the things we might have done [like more contour in the greens] because they had insisted on A-4 putting surfaces.  But it's not like we didn't put in any effort or thought, or I didn't show up.  We tried to do something different for them, and to improve what they had.

Do we have a current conflict I don't know about?  
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Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #106 on: November 23, 2003, 03:46:03 AM »
billg,

That is a really good point.  One the best minimalist designs to study or just enjoy is Brora.  Now that requires very little maintenance.  Sheep, a few greenkeepers and a few machines and some electric fencing and they have a great course.

I suppose the less earth movement you have the less you are messing with nature.  The less you mess with nature on a good site the easier drainage should be.  When I say good site I mean a naturally rolling terrain with soil that is freely draining.  If you have all of this then maintenance should be be minimal...no?

Many would say that TOC is a minimalist design but just the bunkers alone need rebuilding every five years or so.  Is that minimalist maintenance?

I suppose the maintenance side depends also on the amount of traffic a course is going to receive.  Maintenance is also relative to the budget...as budgets go up the greenkeeper receives more revenue.

An architect can only build or design to what the client tells him or her what the maintenance budget is.  There is no point building or designing bunkers that require raking from a sand pro because they are so big but the club doesn't even own a sand pro..

Brian
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #107 on: November 23, 2003, 08:18:04 AM »
Tom Doak,

I don't have a conflict with you, and I stated that Atlantic City came out nicely.  I was merely responding to TWO specific posts were you brought up my name.  One dealing with Kelly Blake Moran, and the other incorrectly identifying me, and not rgkeller, as the one who brought the GCGC issue on # 16 public.

Now that you've elaborated on Atlantic City and corrected the record on GCGC, everything is peachy ;D
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