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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #100 on: April 23, 2006, 05:55:24 PM »
Matt Ward,

I'd agree.

Barring an unusual circumstance I think the USGA and the staff at Winged Foot will have the golf course in exceptional shape to test the best players in the world.

I am curious with respect to the nature and configuration of any buffer of rough between # 6 fairway and the fronting, greenside bunker, and the mowing of the 15th fairway as it approaches the creek.

Perhaps Neil Regan can fill us in.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #101 on: April 23, 2006, 05:58:52 PM »
Matt,
   What is the scaling of the rough you are referring to? Sorry if this was covered earlier, 5 pages is too much to search through.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #102 on: April 24, 2006, 12:40:55 AM »
David Ober,

I'm not sure on my facts about syringing, I"m positive about them.

One of the reasons that the USGA and PGA avoided competitions in the deep south in the heart of the season, summer, is the weather and the ability to maintain competitive conditions.

Ask yourself this question.

If, during the second day of a four day competition, one green was begining to fail.

Should the USGA syringe that green or let it fail, effectively taking it out of play for the remaining two days ?



They should not stress them to the point they need to be syringed during play, EVER.

That is my take on the matter. It is simply unfair in the extreme to do so.

Jim Nugent

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2006, 01:32:38 AM »
Jim,
  You do realize there won't be an answer forthcoming. :) Patrick asks the questions, we answer them. ;)

Ed, you were right.  

It's obvious why Patrick prefers dictatorships.  

Jim Nugent

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #104 on: April 24, 2006, 01:52:03 AM »

Patrick, how many times during U.S. Open championships has the USGA syringed greens during play?  Please give me a precise answer, including when and where this syringing took place.    

Jim Nugent,

In what context would you evaluate my answer ?

Does it matter if it's been 5-10-20 or more times in the last twenty years ?

Does it matter which greens were syringed ?

Does it matter for how long they were syringed ?

Suffice it to say that 2004 wasn't the first time that the USGA syringed greens DURING a competition.

Now, if you'd like to challenge that statement, I'd be willing to wager whatever sum you choose.

We can mail certified checks made payable to each other, to Ran, who will hold them and release them to the winning party.  You pick the amount.

P.S.  Feel free to syndicate your side of the bet.
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Patrick, I evaluate your answer that:

1) You don't know how many times the USGA has syringed greens during play of a U.S. Open; and

2) You hide your ignorance behind bluster.  

It should not take betting money to answer a point that you brought up.  

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2006, 10:37:47 AM »

Patrick, how many times during U.S. Open championships has the USGA syringed greens during play?  Please give me a precise answer, including when and where this syringing took place.    

Jim Nugent,

In what context would you evaluate my answer ?

Does it matter if it's been 5-10-20 or more times in the last twenty years ?

Does it matter which greens were syringed ?

Does it matter for how long they were syringed ?

Suffice it to say that 2004 wasn't the first time that the USGA syringed greens DURING a competition.

Now, if you'd like to challenge that statement, I'd be willing to wager whatever sum you choose.

We can mail certified checks made payable to each other, to Ran, who will hold them and release them to the winning party.  You pick the amount.

P.S.  Feel free to syndicate your side of the bet.
[/color]


Patrick, I evaluate your answer that:

1) You don't know how many times the USGA has syringed greens during play of a U.S. Open; and

2) You hide your ignorance behind bluster.  

It should not take betting money to answer a point that you brought up.  

I e-mailed the U.S.G.A last night asking them about syringing the greens during competition. Am awaiting a response...

Glenn Spencer

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #106 on: April 24, 2006, 10:47:25 AM »
I don't think the USGA is going to say, oh yes we syringed here, here and here. I hope they do though. I definitely remember them syringing at Oakmont, Southern Hills and Olympic. I truly think that is it from the past 20 years. My memory is not that great, but haven't missed more than 10 minutes of coverage in a year. ;D

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #107 on: April 24, 2006, 11:02:59 AM »
Just to clarify, I asked them a series of questions about the practice of syringing.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #108 on: April 24, 2006, 11:03:07 AM »

Patrick, I evaluate your answer that:

1) You don't know how many times the USGA has syringed greens during play of a U.S. Open; and

I never stated that I knew the exact number of times that the USGA syringed greens during a competition, nor did I state which greens were syringed.

I do know for a FACT that the process has taken place in the past and that Shinnecock wasn't the first time.
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2) You hide your ignorance behind bluster.  

Then you shouldn't be afraid to make a sizable wager.
Put your money where your mouth is.

And, I'll make it easier for you, I'll give you two to one odds.
[/color]

It should not take betting money to answer a point that you brought up.

I stated that the USGA had syringed greens during competitions prior to Shinnecock.

You chose to challenge my statement.  
Did you challenge it based on knowledge you have,
or from spite, based on previous exchanges ?
To me, it doesn't matter.  
I stand by my statement and I'm willing to back it up with a substantive wager where you receive two to one odds.

So that there can be no misunderstanding on the wager,
I again assert that the USGA has syringed greens during a championship's play, prior to Shinnecock.

Put up or shut up.
[/color]  

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #109 on: April 24, 2006, 11:10:17 AM »

Patrick, I evaluate your answer that:

1) You don't know how many times the USGA has syringed greens during play of a U.S. Open; and

I never stated that I knew the exact number of times that the USGA syringed greens during a competition, nor did I state which greens were syringed.

I do know for a FACT that the process has taken place in the past and that Shinnecock wasn't the first time.
[/color]

2) You hide your ignorance behind bluster.  

Then you shouldn't be afraid to make a sizable wager.
Put your money where your mouth is.

And, I'll make it easier for you, I'll give you two to one odds.
[/color]

It should not take betting money to answer a point that you brought up.

I stated that the USGA had syringed greens during competitions prior to Shinnecock.

You chose to challenge my statement.  
Did you challenge it based on knowledge you have,
or from spite, based on previous exchanges ?
To me, it doesn't matter.  
I stand by my statement and I'm willing to back it up with a substantive wager where you receive two to one odds.

So that there can be no misunderstanding on the wager,
I again assert that the USGA has syringed greens during a championship's play, prior to Shinnecock.

Put up or shut up.
[/color]  

Patrick,

As I see it, you are making this (whether the USGA has syringed greens DURING competition) the point, when it really isn't, IMHO.

The question that needs to be asked is: SHOULD the USGA make it a practice of syringing greens DURING competition. The answer to that is an unequivocal NO! from where I sit, as both a player and a spectator.

Matt_Ward

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #110 on: April 24, 2006, 11:13:09 AM »
Guys ... Guys ... Guys -- anybody HOME !!!

I asked quite nicely about thread hijacking and what do a number of continue to do. We continue to talk about a topic completely unrelated to Winged Foot and this year's event.

If you want to talk about Shinnecock, the nature of syringing and other such non-pertinent topics from what I originally posted feel free top start another thread and go from there.

I trust I won't have to say this again given the fact it's been already stated twice. Thanks ...


Ed G:

The rough is being scaled for the first time to relfect the type of hole encountered and the typical approach one owuld normally play.

WF / West's 6th hole will likely have the narrowest of fairways -- somewhere between 20-24 yards with the primary rough growing to a height of 8 inches at the max.

One of the concerns raised by the USGA was to avoid situations where the penalty of off-line drives is not scaled. For example, in any number of Opens it is not uncommong for the player who is way off target - 10 or more yards -- to have a better lie and likely better angle into the green than the player who misses by one foot or just a little beyond that.

The issue with Winged Foot / West is that the nature of the approaches is already tough enough and the interplay of the rough needs to be clearly understood otherwise you would find players simply pitching out sideways to the fairway.

Pat Mucci:

I believe the 15th fairway will have a strip of rough before one reaches the creek that cuts across the entire hole. The 6th will have rough prior to the front bunker but the strip that leads into the narrow green opening on the left will still remain as fairway -- so it's possible a player could bounce a shot on from that area into the putting surface.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #111 on: April 24, 2006, 11:31:56 AM »
David Ober,

The USGA and the hosting club have a concern.

Do they NOT syringe and let the greens die during the competition ?

The answer is NO, you can't let that happen.

What some aren't grasping is the progressive maintainance that brings the greens to the desired peak condition for a prolonged period of 4-7 days.

That peak is on the edge, and other factors such as unexpected weather conditions can put them over the edge, causing the greens to be lost during the competition.

That can't be allowed to happen, hence, syringing.

Perhaps some contributing superintendents can provide more in depth analysis.

Matt Ward,

Sorry about that.

Do you believe that any of the competitors will attempt to fly the creek on # 15 as Steve Lapper suggests ?

It may be that they have the talent to clear it, but, at what price, what reward for their risk ?

The creek sits low, making green visibility difficult if not impossible.  In order to get a decent glimpse of the green a drive would probably need to be 50 yards past the creek, and that would seem impossible given the upward slope of the land from the creek to the green.

In addition, the out-of-bounds is so close to the left and the woods on the right are no bargain.  I know that these guys are really good, hit the ball straight and long, but, the configuration of the architectural features, AND the position of the 15th hole during the round would seem to conspire against such attempts.

15-16-17-18 are a tough stretch, why risk a double or triple as you begin that stretch ?

With respect to # 6, I would think that a thin buffer of rough might be to their advantage.  I would also think that a wind at their back on the tee would make a tee shot into the bunker more advantageous with the hole cut behind the bunker.

Holding that green, downwind, from 50-100 yards is no easy task, and the penalty for going long is severe.

It would seem that wind patterns might dictate play.

Steve Lapper

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Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #112 on: April 24, 2006, 04:14:02 PM »
Pat,

   When was the last time you played WFW? I'm not looking to pick a snit with you, but your perception of the 15th's tee shot as well as the possibility of flying it into the greenside bunker on 6th seem antiquated.

     The present configuration of the 15th has the left shoulder of the apron on the far side of the creek at approximately 300 yds from the tee and not as pinched by white stakes (unless brought in further at Open time, Matt??) or trees to the right side as you suggest. (most of the Sugar Maples are on the tee side (about 250yds) of the creek and the White Birches on the far side are clumped farther right at 275ish, with a single large American Beech at 320ish). The collar of rough that extends from the uphill fairway down to the creek is traditionally about 10-15yds at best. Thus, they don't face having to clear the creek by "50yds to see the green" as you suggest. In fact, the fairway is considerably wider across the creek and unless the USGA narrows that, it will be a definitel target for those looking to make a move or having supreme confidence in the big stick. The green is elevated, but quite visible from the beginning of that side of the fairway. Additionally, most pros will have little problem visualizing an uphill shot to horizon-looking green with a PW in their hands. They'd rather have that than a downhill lie and a 7-8 iron, don't you think???? A high and straight, power-fade (commonplace to most pro's quiver of shots) might even work with 3W, let alone a driver. Also, the hole is one of the few that enables the spinning wedge a chance to get close to a front-half pin.

   As for #6, no high rough (as Matt aptly points out will likely be the norm all around but the front opening of the green) will be of ANY aid to any shot on this hole. With possibly the narrowest green on the course, a player cannot afford to miss the chance to apply some spin to their wedge. If the pro's ignore the smart safe play short and left, then those that find the long greenside bunker on the right will be thankful, but using it as a target would be a legal definition of attempted suicide.

  Besides, if that's the target, than the player can certainly have little fear of blasting it over the creek on 15.

   As for wind.....if it arrives in June (when typically it does not...just the humidity) it will ususally come from the SW in the am and swirl around to the NE in the pm off the nearby LI Sound. Thus, the winds might be expected to be in the face of those early players and at their back later, however absent any cold front approaching, mid-summer winds are slight at best and not usually much of a factor so deep on the West side of the property. There are still large corridors of trees in and around these holes and often a bit more critical to the stretch of 8-9-10 where the property starts to come back into the open exposure. Also, #6 is near the lowest points of the property and thus just a bit more immune to the wind than other holes. An abnormal cross wind will be way more hairy for influence over any approach shot.

Pat.....you and I can go on for a long time about this, but I grew up looping on this course and have the experience of seeing just a few shots shy of Neil Regan over time (and PS....Neil is about the only person here on GCA I'd defer to on describing strategy on WFW).
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 04:23:48 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #113 on: April 24, 2006, 05:17:35 PM »
One of the green keepers on board could answer this a lot better, but syringing during tournament player is, well, maybe not common, but it isn't really rare either. My (limited) understanding of the subject is that it is not done to slow down the green and make it playable, it is done rather to create a micro enviroment with a little humidity so that the grass can survive the extreme conditions.

It is also my understanding that frequent syringing did indeed take place at Oakmont in 94, Southern Hills in 01, etc.

I thought Shinnecock was fabulous. The best players were in contention down the stretch and the best player that weekend won. One hole got a little out a control, and the media and internet blitz turned it into a feeding frenzy. When you take the course to its limits, that can happen. I'd MUCH rather see that at an Open, especially on a course like Shinnecock, than see a run of the mill setup. Gotta take the bad with the great, and somehow the best players were able to negotiate #7.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #114 on: April 24, 2006, 05:32:29 PM »
Pat Mucci:

There is no gain for players to try to drive the ball over the water hazard at #15. The total carry is close to 310 yards and candidly the hole will likely feature 3-metals or its equivalent.

No doubt as Steve correctly points out the sloping nature of the fairway does present issues as you go further down the fairway. But I think the players will favor being as far down the fairway as possibly because it's easier to hit the green with less club than with say a mid-iron.

One other thing -- the back right corner of #15 will likely be the pin location either Saturday or Sunday. The slightest -- and I underline the word slightest miss right and it's bogey at minimum. Fly the green and the OB behind the target is not farfetched. If played properly this is the last real good opportunity to make a birdie.

One final comment -- the amount of wind in June is really not an issue for Winged Foot. The only time you might get such a burst is when thunderstorms are popping and a cold front is working through. Other than that -- it's better bet for the temp and humidity to be more of an issue.


Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #115 on: April 24, 2006, 06:30:10 PM »
Steve Lapper,

The distinction in the tee shots at # 15 and # 6 is that the tee shot at # 6 isn't a forced carry and a mis-hit isn't punished severely.

If a competitor thins, cuts or draws his tee shot, he isn't greeted with a stroke and distance penalty on # 6.

# 15 holds great danger and its place in the order of play, near the end of the round, but at the begining of a difficult four hole stretch would seem to influence the players to layup rather then gamble.

Let's wager dinner on the tee shots at # 15 from the back tee.

I say not 6 players out of about 150 will attempt it on each of the first two days and that not 3 players will attempt it, per day, on saturday and sunday.

I've played WFW each of the last two years and have been playing it almost every year for the last 47 years, including many years of competition in the Anderson and MGA Amateur, so I have a some feel for the golf course.

Matt_Ward

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2006, 09:42:08 AM »
I have been told that a few of the key professionals will hit Winged Foot about 14 days prior to the event to get a real understanding of the course.

The word I hear is that Mickelson will follow a similar path that he took when preparing for the PGA last yeat at Baltusrol.
Be very much interested if Lefty follows the same path with two drivers because working the ball off the tee at the West will clearly pay dividends.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2006, 10:35:37 AM »
One of the green keepers on board could answer this a lot better, but syringing during tournament player is, well, maybe not common, but it isn't really rare either. My (limited) understanding of the subject is that it is not done to slow down the green and make it playable, it is done rather to create a micro enviroment with a little humidity so that the grass can survive the extreme conditions.

It is also my understanding that frequent syringing did indeed take place at Oakmont in 94, Southern Hills in 01, etc.

I thought Shinnecock was fabulous. The best players were in contention down the stretch and the best player that weekend won. One hole got a little out a control, and the media and internet blitz turned it into a feeding frenzy. When you take the course to its limits, that can happen. I'd MUCH rather see that at an Open, especially on a course like Shinnecock, than see a run of the mill setup. Gotta take the bad with the great, and somehow the best players were able to negotiate #7.

Unfortunately, by syringing the green to save the green, you also simultaneously lower the green speed and make it more receptive to incoming shots.

Anything that can be done to avoid having to do this, should be done, IMHO.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2006, 10:46:05 AM »
David Ober,

That's not true.

The water never gets to the subsurface on spot syringes.

The water serves to cool the leaf blades, not saturate the soil.

And, when the heat and wind are up, the water evaporates quickly.

At the height those greens are cut to, some might ask, what grass ?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 10:47:20 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #119 on: April 26, 2006, 12:50:03 PM »
David Ober,

That's not true.

The water never gets to the subsurface on spot syringes.

The water serves to cool the leaf blades, not saturate the soil.

And, when the heat and wind are up, the water evaporates quickly.

At the height those greens are cut to, some might ask, what grass ?

So then are you saying that they only syringed #7 at Shinnecock to SAVE THE GREEN, and NOT to make the hole more playable?

Are you sure you want to say that?

Matt_Ward

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #120 on: May 31, 2006, 10:58:30 AM »
Just as an FYI -- the grand total for players totally exempt from qualifying stands now at 79.

That means no more than 81 spots will be filled in qualifying provided the USGA decides to max out the total number of people playing to roughly 160.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #121 on: May 31, 2006, 11:11:26 AM »
I think 156 is standard so that leaves 77 spots through qualifying. Seem fair to you?

Jim Nugent

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #122 on: May 31, 2006, 11:28:20 AM »
Isn't there a chance not everyone who is automatically eligible will end up playing?  I seem to remember something like that happening  at the PGA back in the early 1990's, with rather momentous results.  

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #123 on: May 31, 2006, 11:31:39 AM »
Sure, and there are always alternates to fill in those spots. The difference between the US Open and the PGA is that alternates for the Open are determined by their position out of qualifying. PGA alternates are determined by world ranking or money list position or something similar.

Matt_Ward

Re:Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview
« Reply #124 on: May 31, 2006, 03:06:16 PM »
I have to say that one of the major issues that clearly had an impact at the '84 event was the amount of overall congestion that took place in and around Fenimore Road and the other avenues in and around the club.

Winged Foot is clearly in an area where the volume of traffic and the serpentine nature of the roads can play a major role.

I still think of the stort when Gary Player -- sensing a possible late arrival -- htiched on a motor bike and got to the club just in time.


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