[Craig Sweet]

I never said she would be the greatest of all time. I was commenting on your post. You said "questions remain", "will she get better".

That is idiotic.

She is clearly a better golfer today than she was back in January at the Sony. She will clearly be a better golfer tomorrow.

But since you raised the question and mentioned other phenoms that have "flamed out", lets consider flaming out for a minute.

A phenom in another sport is generally a phenom against his/her peers and they generally "flame out" when they move up in competition against older more mature/seasoned/experienced atheletes. Some get injured,married,lose interest etc. but most can't compete at that higher level.

Michelle Wie on the other hand is a phenom against older,more mature/seasoned/experienced atheletes. She has MOVED UP in class and competes with this better athelete as their equal.

Hmmmm...interesting that you might even suggest that she will flame out. When might that occur? When she is going head to head against Tiger Woods everyday? When the LPGA becomes the super Amazon tour?  

If you do not think she will continue to improve then I fear you are dumber than I suspect or you're just not paying attention to her golf game and abilities.

[Brent Hutto]

Shivas -- you ducked the main point I made -- Wie bypasses amateur competitions because Team Wie fully knows that winning when you are the overwhelming favorite is a far different story than being in the midst of a major stroke play event with little or no downside. You didn't answer that -- why is that pardner? Maybe, just maybe you are wrong and the singular fact that Team Wie (as opposed to just Michelle) seeks to avoid any bump in the marketing road they are heading.

Matt,

If you can earn a living writing them I'm sure it's within your capabilities to distinguish an actual fact and the spin that you choose to put on that fact.

Here's a fact:

Michelle Wie did not play this year in ANY of the amateur match play events that she has played in previously.

Here's Matt's Opinion:

"...Team Wie (as opposed to just Michelle) seeks to avoid any bump in the marketing road they are heading."

You refer to this latter statement as a "singular fact" when it is no such thing. There is no entity named "Team Wie" and you have no knowledge on which to base an assertion that this mythical entity has some concept of a "marketing road" or what might constitue a "bump".

You sound like one of those talk-radio blowhards who spin a bunch of loaded phrases out of thin air and then badger someone into refuting them as "facts" when they are no such thing. Shivas made an incorrect assertion regarding Michelle Wie's tournament schedule this year. When his error was pointed out he withdrew the statement. The stuff you keep shoveling can neither be confirmed or refuted because it simply reflect your own ever-changing view of the world. There's an objective reality that can be observed and discussed, why not stick to that?

[EDIT] Correction per rgkeller applied.

[rgkeller]

"Michelle Wie did not play this year in some of the amateur match play events that she has played in previously."

Michelle Wie did not play this year in ANY of the amateur match play events that she has played in previously.

[ForkaB]

When I was playing junior tennis, the best player BY FAR in my age group was a guy named Cliff Richey, from Texas.  He turned pro/shamateur when he was 17 and shunned the junior tournaments, letting a lesser known player named Stan Smith win at Kalamazoo in 1964.

I often wonder what happened to those two guys.......

[JESII]

Rich makes a great point with a great example, and I've referrenced the dynamic during these WIE conversations in the past.

There is no way to quantify the psychological difference between playing against 'age peers' and winning versus playing against higher competition (presumably for the experience and challenge) and not winning, but the examples of the latter not working out are innumerable.

I think we all hope Michelle Wie becomes a world beater but our concern for her path leads to these 5 page threads. I have my own three kids to raise I'm going to try and do that as well as I can and try not to tell you how to raise yours.

Jim

[rgkeller]

"Let's say she played this week and won."

Ah, but Ms. Wie did not play, which was the very point.

[Jim Nugent]

Shivas:

Check out the comments made by team Wie during her failures at the Girl's Junior and those that followed her. Wie doesn't say much -- but her team is quick to add the age disclaimer when needed.

Shivas -- you ducked the main point I made -- Wie bypasses amateur competitions because Team Wie fully knows that winning when you are the overwhelming favorite is a far different story than being in the midst of a major stroke play event with little or no downside. You didn't answer that -- why is that pardner? Maybe, just maybe you are wrong and the singular fact that Team Wie (as opposed to just Michelle) seeks to avoid any bump in the marketing road they are heading.

Craig Sweet:

There have been plenty of phenoms who have been huge successes early in their competitive years but they have flamed out as time progressed.

What will happen to Wie is an unknown.

The potential is there -- but if you believe she is lock to be the greatest women player of all time then I think you are clearly getting way ahead of yourself and the tag idiotic may be pointed in the wrong direction.

Matt, thereīs downside every time she steps up to the plate.  Suppose 2005 had gone a bit differently for her:

*  Instead of hanging under the cut line at Deere, she shot 76-77

*  She did not qualify for match play at the APL, or worse, didnīt make it to stroke play in the first place

*  On the LPGA she couldnīt crack the top 20, missed some cuts, got her bell ringed several times.

Team Wie, as you have annointed them, would be facing a vastly different marketing reality, wouldnīt they?  Their star would be worth a tiny fraction of what she is now.    

Wie is staring at an eight or nine figure payday real soon now for one reason. She has taken on the biggest challenges of any golfer in history, and repeatedly risen to the occasion.  She  has proven sheīs one of the top several women golfers in the world.  More important, she has shown that a woman can beat PGA players, and maybe just mabye even be good enough to play their tour.  Just two years ago Gary Player promised us that could never happen.   If Wie had flopped against the men, maybe heīd be right.  She sure as hell would be worth a whole lot less than she is.  

The idea many of you are promoting -- that any amateur tournament is more important to a top golfer than the British Open -- never would have occurred to me.          
   

[rgkeller]

>>She has taken on the biggest challenges of any golfer in history<<

Well, I see that we have reached new heights of hyperbole with Ms. Wie.

[Brent Hutto]

The idea many of you are promoting -- that any amateur tournament is more important to a top golfer than the British Open -- never would have occurred to me.          

That's because it's made up. It's an assertion on which to base an argument which isn't supported by actual observation of the real world.

Since Michelle Wie hasn't crashed and burned...or been caught using steroids...or make an ass out of herself in front of the media...or thrown temper tantrum (a la Morgan Pressel)...or damaged golf courses (a la Woods or Garcia)...or, well anything bad at all...

Then the only way in which she can be critcisized is for failing to live up to some silly imaginary sequence of responsibilities or by attributing her success to some kind of sinister Protocols of the Elders of Nike plot to create a media sensation out of thin air. Without that stuff, there's really not much to say except "Gee, she's doing really well out there" which is pretty much my own attitude.

[Matt_Ward]

Brent:

Let's talk about the shovel. OK. Team Wie opts to avoid amateur match play competition that include Wie's age pears. That's a fact -- not spin by me.

Another fact -- Wie would be overwhelmingly the favorite in such events. Why the ducking?

Another fact -- Team Wie (Dad and the folks at IMG) are carefully orchestrating this parade of events and what will happen. If you don't think this is happening then you are in major league denial land. Ask the folks at McDonald's if they had any discussion with Michelle's Dad concerning her exemption into a previously LPGA pro event only.

Oh, of course Brent -- I'm spinning more BS when I say that marketing and the $$ that will come her way has anything at all to do with this. There is an objective reality and I have address it -- because it differs with your take is not my concern or problem.

Brent -- The Wie camp sees amateur competition and avoids it. Better to play in another stroke play events that provides the appropriate cover. I salute Michelle's talent but I know a dodge ball game when I see it. Maybe you're the one who needs to take off the dark glasses and see the motives that are taking place.

I just believe it would be nice to see Michelle earn a national championship through the USGA and the Girls Junior and Women's Amateur would be wonderful be vehicles to demonstrate that she can win when played against the peers she will be competing against for the long haul.

Craig Sweet:

Really?

Idiotic.

I see -- you are ordaining Wie as what then?

You say she has progressed. OK -- let's say she has for this year. Where does it say it will continue on the same progression / pace. Hey Craig -- let me mention the name of someone from a number of years ago who was a "can't miss" junior player named Eddie Pearce. You may not know the name but folks like Ben Crenshaw do. Eddie won the US Juniors at Brookline ('68) if memory serves and he had all the talent and skills to be a world class pro according to all the pundits. Sorry to say it didn't turn out that way. The same thing applies to a number of other fine players over the years.

To borrow the expression -- shit happens.

I never said Wie will flame out -- allow me to use my own words not yours.

Before you start coronating people to be this and that how bout she earn a few victories to demonstrate that?

Craig -- do yourself a favor -- maybe your TV conked out during the final round of the Women's Open -- maybe you should see a tape of the abilities you trumpet because I saw a vastly different ending.

Shivas:

Wonderful word game -- contact Hillary because she will need it when she runs for the White House. It's not about bigger / better tournaments because in stroke play events what is the downside for Wie? You get folks like you and all the other apologists who march out the "15 years old excuse" but for some reason when Wie gets dusted in the Girls' Junior all of you folks then have amnesia or lose your power of speech. How convenient.

The Wie team (as opposed to Michelle) doesn't want to upset the $$$ applecart by playing in an event where the golden girl is the heavy favorite 24/7 and face numerous head-to-head encounters. Why is that you suppose? Maybe -- just maybe -- they fear she will be whupped and smoked by someone and therefore the "luster" will come down a few pegs in its overall brightness.

Shivas -- you of all people are the one championing the idea that the star players need to assert themselves with victories. Why give Wie a free pass? Tiger hit the nail on the head regarding what Wie should be doing -- I guess Tiger is mistaken because he knows what the power of winning did for him and will do for Michelle in the long run.

[Jim Nugent]

>>She has taken on the biggest challenges of any golfer in history<<

Well, I see that we have reached new heights of hyperbole with Ms. Wie.

This may get a bit redundant, but here is why I say she has taken on the biggest challenges of any golfer in history:

No other 15 year old has taken on the best LPGA players in the world, and over a full season show she is one of the top few.

No other 13 year old has ever won an adult USGA event.

No other 13 year old has shot 66 in the third round of an LPGA major, putting herself in the final group on Sunday.

No other 14 year old, boy or girl, has come within a stroke of making the cut at a PGA tour event.

No other 15 year old, boy or girl, has made 9 birdies in 36 holes of another PGA event.

No woman has made it to the final eight of a menīs adult USGA event.

No 15 year old has ever beaten nearly half the field of a PGA event, and neither has any woman.  Wie has done it twice.  

Nicklaus never had that success against the proīs at that age.  Neither did Tiger, Bobby Jones, Ben Crenshaw, Eddie Pearce or any other prodigy you care to name.  They all did what you want her to do.  Play the juniors and amateurs.  Wait till sheīs older and more mature.  Maybe go to college.  

You are proving my point.  This girl has hopped, skipped and jumped over the greatest prodigies the sport has ever known.  She has played the highest competition there is, and as a high school sophomore established herself as one of the two or three best women on the planet.  On menīs courses, she almost certainly is the best.  Tell me, who has taken a more challenging, ambitious path than Wie?

[Craig Sweet]

Actually Matt, you DID use the word "FLAME OUT" and I responded.

I'm not sure why you are so HUNG UP on where, and against whom, Michelle Wie chooses to play against. Its NONE of your business, nor is it mine. You, and a small handful of moronic sports writers are desperately searching for a STORY. Good for you, maybe thats your job. But it smacks of manufacturing a story for the sake of selling something. So please, trot out the " what has she won" angle, and the "she's ducking peer competition" angle, and sell, sell, sell. I soon before you trot out the "is she really 15" angle?

Matt, I have not coronated her as anything other than what she is...a very talented 15 year that has been willing to take on older men and women and has done a pretty darn good job of yet...once again it is the media that seems so hung up on labeling her...and that includes the "choke" label after the womens open...gee...a 15 year old blew the final round. Has that ever happened to Tiger? Yes. Has that ever happened to Goosen? Yes. Has that ever happened to Norman? Yes...Like you said, shit happens Matt. Her final round at the Open? Get over it. I'm sure she has. But then, she's more adult than you.

[CHrisB]

There is a reason why some people become truly great athletes, while other people sit behind a desk for a living.

Yes, there are differences in athletic talent, but there are also huge differences in the way they think.

I think this thread demonstrates that.

[rgkeller]

A summer schedule full of sponsors' exemptions does not translate into the greatest challenge in the history of golf nor does a list of accomplishments that include only one victory constitute success. Challenges involve risk and Ms. Wie is, at the least, risk averse.

Ms. Wie is a true prodigy and stands on the cusp of great riches because of her potential and because of a very well thought out marketing plan. She should turn professional and take the money.

[Craig Sweet]

RG....You're right...there is no risk in playing Annika or playing at the John Deere against men.

[rgkeller]

RG....You're right...there is no risk in playing Annika or playing at the John Deere against men.

Exactly. The risk for a fifteen year old Ms. Wie is playing Morgan Pressel or Jane Park or Angela Park or In-Bee Park etc.

[Craig Sweet]

RG, your right again! There is no risk in looking totally foolish against the best woman golfer of all time and the best pro's on the PGA tour!  Why I'm sure the sportswriters would NEVER even dare suggest she shouldn't be playing against the best at her tender young age.

[Craig Sweet]

Oh, and RG,I forgot, its only a matter of time before Pressel, Jane Park, In Bee Park and all those other kids are all playing on the LPGA with Michelle.

[Jim Nugent]

A summer schedule full of sponsors' exemptions does not translate into the greatest challenge in the history of golf nor does a list of accomplishments that include only one victory constitute success. Challenges involve risk and Ms. Wie is, at the least, risk averse.

Ms. Wie is a true prodigy and stands on the cusp of great riches because of her potential and because of a very well thought out marketing plan. She should turn professional and take the money.

Wie got a few sponsorīs exemptions, not a summerīs full.  Tiger also got sponsorīs exemptions as an amateur: he failed in all of them.  Wie did remarkably better, beating all the women but one, and even taking on nearly half the PGA proīs as well.  If she had failed, she would be another footnote in the history of sports.  Ty Tryon, Eddie Pearce, Michelle Wie.  She would not be worth XXX millions of dollars: her family would be a hundred thousand dollars or more in deficit with little prayer of recouping the expenses.  You think that is not risky or challenging?  

A 15 year old dared to believe she could play and beat all the best women in the world (except maybe one) -- and more remarkably play and compete in PGA events.  And she was right.  For the first time in golfing history, such a dream was right.  

Somehow playing lesser competition, on smaller courses with less of a spotlight is a riskier proposition than taking on and beating the best in the world in the most important tournaments on earth?  

[rgkeller]

Oh, and RG,I forgot, its only a matter of time before Pressel, Jane Park, In Bee Park and all those other kids are all playing on the LPGA with Michelle.

I thought Ms. Wie was going to be playing on the PGA Tour.

[rgkeller]

RG, your right again! There is no risk in looking totally foolish against the best woman golfer of all time and the best pro's on the PGA tour!  Why I'm sure the sportswriters would NEVER even dare suggest she shouldn't be playing against the best at her tender young age.

The greatest risk Ms. Wie took this summer was her entry into the US Publinks.

And her game got more out of that tournament than in any other she has played.

[Craig Sweet]

RG..The PGA tour? She is? Well, I think thats terrific! Why not play both? If you have the talent and the desire reach for the stars!!

How do you think she'll do on the PGA tour?

[rgkeller]

"Somehow playing lesser competition, on smaller courses with less of a spotlight is a riskier proposition than taking on and beating the best in the world in the most important tournaments on earth? "

When measuring the risk of her marketing value, absolutely.

[rgkeller]

RG..The PGA tour? She is? Well, I think thats terrific! Why not play both? If you have the talent and the desire reach for the stars!!

How do you think she'll do on the PGA tour?

Ms. Wie will never earn a PGA Tour card.

[Craig Sweet]

Wow! I always thought that challenging yourself against superior competition was risky business. I always thought we admired people that put their best game on the line and played against the best. Never ducking a challenge, always facing the possibility you would do poorly, and that someone would say you don't belong at this higher level.

But now I'm learning that you need to slow down and play against "lessor" competition. Learn to win. That THIS IS risky business.

Oh well...we all walk down different paths and talent has a way of rising to the top regardless of the path taken.  And ultimately that's what matters.

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