Centerline Hazards

« **on:** February 20, 2004, 07:45:26 PM »

The 8th hole at NGLA possesses one of the best centerline hazards that I've ever encountered.

A smaller version may be found at # 13 at Friar's Head.
Some might throw in # 8 at Hidden Creek.

What are some of the best centerline hazards in golf ?

And, what makes them so good ?

« **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2004, 07:49:41 PM »

The obvious one for me being a Brit is the 4th at Woking. Pure strategy... Play safe to the left of them means an approach over bunkers, play between the bunkers and the railway to the right and open up the green for yourself.

16 TOC similar!

« **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2004, 07:57:11 PM »

Pat - Do you think the centerline hazards on #13 at FH are better even than those on #5?

« **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2004, 08:05:23 PM »

#5 at Sand Hills is green front with a boomerang green hugging it. Pin placement and shot choice dictates how much you want or need to challenge.

Doaks incision like cut-out on the par 5 8th(?) at The Rawls course, is so well placed that I felt like Tommy at he DA.

« **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2004, 08:07:45 PM »

#15 at Oakland Hills is right in the centerline (not part of original design I believe). Go left in fairway easier angle, shorter club to wild green. Go to right in fairway longer semi-blind shot.
#3 Pacific Dunes has a great bunker right where you want to hit it. Instead it gets into your head right away! The gambler in me likes to force it up the narrow gap to left which is easier approach to angled green. Go right makes it safer but longer and tougher second shot.
Great match play holes!

« **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2004, 08:10:09 PM »

SPDB,

For me, YES.
I also think the prevailing winds are a material factor

I also overlooked an important centerline hazard,
the 6th at Riviera.

« **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2004, 08:41:15 PM »

How about the original Thomas's Riviera #8? One of the true split fairway and complete CENTERLINE hazard holes. I believe it was originally a drywash but it was a hazard feature.

« **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2004, 08:50:42 PM »

The CENTERLINE HAZARD I have had the most experience with is the 16th at TOC.

I worked on the scoreboard near the 15th green and 16th tee at the '95 Open Championship and watched every great player of the time (including a young amateur named Tiger) hit a tee shot there. I have also played there myself 6 times.

I only saw approximately 10 attempts at driving it right of the Principle's Nose. 7 of the 10 were successful. The other three were either OB or in the Nose. On Sunday, Daly started his drive out over the grandstands to the right of the hole at least 10 yards OB. He drew it back perfectly and left himself a little wedge to the green. It was an amazing risk to take that late in a major.

Everyone seemed to hit 2-iron or 3-wood left. I guess they didn't want to make two big numbers in a row since #17 is next. What effect do you think #17 has mentally on the strategy used in playing #16. I seem to think most play conservatively there to thwart a two hole blow-up.

Jeff F.

« **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2004, 09:32:43 PM »

“No hole is a good hole unless it has one or more hazards in a direct line of the hole.” - A. Mackenzie

“The direct line to the hole is the line of instinct and to make a good hole you must break up that line to create the line of charm.” - M. Behr

The best centerline hazards are the ones that create confusion in the golfers mind. Some good ones have been mentioned. The center bunker on #10 at Lehigh short of its run away green is a good one.

Mark

« **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2004, 11:45:14 PM »

This is the 3rd at Machrihanish, "Islay", as seen from a dune in the right rough near the fairway beginning about 80 yards from the tee.
All the bunkers are reachable off the tee.

« **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2004, 12:00:24 AM »

Quote from: SPDB on February 20, 2004, 07:57:11 PM

Pat - Do you think the centerline hazards on #13 at FH are better even than those on #5?

Sean, Have you seen or played Friars Head #13?

« **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2004, 12:01:52 AM »

Rustic Canyon #13 is another from tee to approach. #5 has a centerline bunker also. You could also say that there are many hazards at Rustic Canyon #3. You have the Crunchy Wall, Two huge bunkers.

I love the strategy a centerline hazard induces to play. It like go left or right, its your choice--may it be a good one.

« **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2004, 02:04:15 AM »

Quote from: Tommy_Naccarato on February 21, 2004, 12:01:52 AM

Rustic Canyon #13 is another from tee to approach. #5 has a centerline bunker also. You could also say that there are many hazards at Rustic Canyon #3. You have the Crunchy Wall, Two huge bunkers.

I've played RC maybe 25 times. I disagree.

#13 isn't in play, too small and too much landing area left and right. It is a lovely visual though. One of my favorite holes anywhere actually. Reachable or impossible depending on the wind and time of day.
#14 is far more fun from the championship tees whatever the wind.
#5 hazard is too far for me or anyone I've played with (290+ to reach) and I've never had a significant trailing wind.
#3 hazard is too short to be a bother, maybe 210 to carry though it causes most to go right.

« **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2004, 05:01:43 AM »

Though almost everyone is familiar with the Black, the Red is a truely great course. Having played the Black, Blue , and Red during the past 13 years in tournamnets, I think the 13th Red is the best hole in the whole complex. It is a @400 (it may soon be lengthened) hole with a massive centerline bunker that begins @ 180 from the green and extends for nearly a 100 yards. the left fairway is probably only 22yards wide with an unguarded approach to a back 1/2 punchbowl green. The right fairwayis currently narrow,but was originally @ 40+ yards wide. The right option is an easily hit fairway that will require an approach over a 5ft deep bunker and about the front 1/2 of the green sloping away from the fairway. The third option is laying way back at about 180 to an extemely wide fairway. The approach fom this angle has a right 1/2 of green guarded by the 5ft deep bunker and the left bunker is also in play. All in all a great choice of options.

« **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2004, 05:13:31 AM »

Joe,
Is it not in the center of the fairway?

You don't try to challenge the hazard by trying to fly-it and get the turbo boost of the back side? leading to extra distance to negotiate that green?

What about the bunker thats placed in the centerline, in front of the green?

« **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2004, 06:37:30 AM »

Personally, I'd never say that center-line hazards up near the green are quite so interesting, or let's just say multi-optional as a really good center-line hazard on a fairway tee shot. The reasons are pretty elementary. On the fairway tee shot with a really good center-line hazard the choices can potentially be four and very distinct but with the center-line hazard in front of a green the distinct choices really boil down to only two. To me this is only because the real target, the green, is so close by so the width choices are sort of necessarily narrowed or telescoped!

Mark Fine used the example of a fairway center-line hazard of Lehigh's bunker on #10. Again, to me, the distinct choices are really only two--although that Flynn bunker on Lehigh's #10 is perhaps the best center line hazard near the front of a green I've ever seen--and the reasons it's the best I've ever seen are many! It's probably even more than the best I've ever seen---to me it's perfect and it's something every architectural student should study to see why!

« **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2004, 09:09:25 AM »

TomP, Just thinking out-loud here: Taking the ninth at Pebble, with it's green front high lipped bunker, I believe I have more than just the two options (if I read your post correctly). Of course, depending on the area from the approach is attempted, and the ability of the golfer will either increase the # of options, or lower them. For the better player, I'd say the options are less than the number for a higher hncp'r. The better player is rarely, if ever, going to think about where to miss or to lay-up. They will likely always be flag hunting, even if it's a five wood from 220. While the hack, (ok me) will know that carrying a nice high soft 3 iron from 195 is likely doomed. So, now we have to think. If we know the hole trying to get close to the front bunker is a bad idea because it runs downhill into it. Playing to the apron on the right is also intimidating due to it's narrowness and the nastiness to the right.

My point is that, while all my options are available to me, I need to predict the outcvome of whtever I try to execute, ergo more than just the two options of go for it, or lay-up. But the # of options on where to lay-up are numerous.

As I said I was thinking as I typed. Did I make any sense? Am I splitting hairs or are the number of options biased towards GIR?

« **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2004, 10:15:45 AM »

A Clayman,

I wasn't referencing bunkers or hazards that front greens.

TEPaul,

I had forgotten about the 15th at Seminole, perhaps similar in principle to the 8th at Riviera, but, I have rarely seen anyone take the left side route, perhaps it's a route that is more appealing from the front tees. What's your take on it.

« **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2004, 10:46:05 AM »

#4 at Barona creek, essentially plays like a center line hazard even though the hole doesn't play straightaway. To see it from overhead it would look like a diagonal carry, but the bunkering beyond the central bunker complex, makes you choose going right with a much longer approach, or try to get down the narrow left side to leave little more than a wedge. The only downside to this hole is that many golfers use shorter tees which makes the left option much less intimidating.
I agree that #8 at NGLA is one of the best examples and is my favorite. The hollow to the right is the brilliant part of the design, where you have no sight of the green if you choose the fat part of the fairway.

« **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2004, 10:48:39 AM »

#5 at Cuscowilla is a great centerline bunker. The green, with no bunkers sets up for a shot from the harder to handle left side. Coming in from the right requries a shot of precise distance because the saucer like green is so shallow from that angle.

« **Reply #20 on:** February 21, 2004, 10:55:34 AM »

Pat -

When I played Seminole last year, the other three guys in my group took the left side of 15. I don't think they meant to, however.

Nicklaus has done several good centerline hazards. There was a time when he seemed to use them frequently. I haven't seen many in his more recent work. Melrose has a couple. The New Course. Country Club of the South. Valhalla has a split fairway. Colleton River.

I would like to see more of them, especially on short par 4's and par 5's.

They can be misued, though. For example, Melrose no. 9 is a par 5 than bends right to left bordered by a marsh area on the left. Nicklaus placed a bunker center left in the landing area, creating a very narrow strip of fairway left of the centerline bunker, but right of the marsh. That left side of the centerline bunker, however, is too tight a landing area and not a real option for any but the very best golfers. Because it is so tight on the left, the centerline bunker plays, esssentially, as a border to the left side of the fairway. An otherwise nice, wide fairway is wasted by a misplaced centerline bunker..

Seminole 15 is a mirror image of 9 at Melrose, but Ross's centerline feature is much farther away from the water on the right, thus making the choice to hit the right branch of the fairway a real option for most players.

Bob

« **Reply #21 on:** February 21, 2004, 10:57:02 AM »

Sarge is right. I had forgotten about no. 5 a Cuscowilla. Great hole.

Bob

« **Reply #22 on:** February 21, 2004, 10:59:36 AM »

Pat, to be honest, I've never been a huge fan of Seminole's #15 and I'm certainly not of that left optional fairway. What it really serves as is sort of what's sometimes referred to on a course as a "ladies aid" (sort of like the right hand way around the quarry on Merion's #16).

The reason ladies and old men use it is because they're hesitant to try to carry any water on the tee ball to the right fairway and even if they did that they really need to go diagonally from there over to the end of the left fairway because they can't really hit it over the second pond.

I've never seen a good player use that left route unless they really missed drive or perhaps were into some severe wind (that tee shot is pretty much into the prevailing wind).

But that left route isn't very good for two reasons, in my opinion--one that's inherent and the other which can be easily corrected (if it hasn't already been). The inherent reason is when last I was there they didn't have enough of a distance differential between the start of the left fairway and the carry over the water to the right fairway and the other reason is those ridiculous palm trees that were right down the center of that dividing bunker scheme. They looked like a line of tephone poles to me and just discouraged many who might have otherwise thought to go that way from doing so. If they took those down at least it would be a little better but not much.

I don't know, that to me is an example of an option that looks better on paper than in practice but the ladies and older players have to use it because some of the time they can't go the normal way without getting wet! To me using that option is sort of like going from NYC to Boston using the NY upstate thruway way west!

« **Reply #23 on:** February 21, 2004, 01:11:28 PM »

One of the reasons I like Wild Horse so much is it has a number of centerline, or just a "little off" centerline hazards. I think the theme used at Wild Horse by Dave and Dan on several of the holes might have come from their earlier work for C&C on #5 at Sand Hills. The windy wide fairway prairie sites need a few of these sort of holes because they are designed wide for the wind. By the same token they need those center line hazards to be at varying distances so that sometimes they are right in the LZ and others, are relatively easily drivable and others are out of reach. Examples at Wild Horse or #2 left of center line but right in the center of two fairways and a real problem if the drive drifts or runs left on #2. Then coming back off tee on #3, usually somewhat intimidating, yet usually easily drivable over them to get best angle for second shot on the par 5. But, from back tees into the wind, sometimes a problem. #7 just off center line on left is a well placed bunker that if you look at the My Home Course write-up, the designer himself has trouble avoiding...

Then on the back, #12 has more of a top shot aiming centerline about 150 out from the tee. #15 has a left side of fairway bunker that somehow seems to play like a centerline in that many try to drive or get very close to the green by flirting one over the inside edge of it and get caught in the trap. #16 has a left of centerline with plenty of room left and over that side. It can be just in the LZ, drivable or unreachable depending on wind... #17 as a blind one off tee that long drivers must factor in. And 18 has a similarly situated just left of centerline like 16. Yet, with all of those centerlines, because of width, wind, and firmness, they are not in the least overdone at Wild Horse...

« **Reply #24 on:** February 21, 2004, 02:10:23 PM »

Here's one I'd guess no one reading this thread has played, except for Dan Kelly. It's #10 at Mississippi Dunes in Cottage Grove, Minn.:

It's a tougher hole than it looks from this overhead photo. It's a 436-yard par 4; the tee shot comes out of a chute of dunes and trees, and all you notice from the tee are those yawning centerline bunkers (railroad ties are used to build up the back of the second one.) You can't really see the green from the tee, and those three bunkers on the right side of the fairway are partially obscured by the dunes and trees on the right.

The rough used to be sandy, weedy waste area, but in this photo it appears to have been sodded in to make it at least somewhat playable. I haven't played the course in a couple of years, but the best option used to be to try to hit your tee shot just to the right of the centerline bunkers, either stopping short of the three smaller bunkers on the right, or optimally, hitting the slot between the centerline bunkers and the three to the right. If you tried to go left of the centerline bunker, you'd have to reach the very edge of the fairway to leave yourself with an approach shot of 200 yards. (The green has a false front and the last two-thirds of it falls away from you, making it a really tough approach with a four-iron or more.)

Interesting hole -- not great, but it's the first one I think of when the subject is centerline hazards.

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