News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« on: February 18, 2004, 07:46:04 AM »
OK, OK I have finally gotten around to posting these pictures that I promised some folks I would do last fall.  Since I have finally gotten a few days in a row to actually be around home I figured I better do it now.

Last fall Paul Cowley was nice enough to host Michael Whitaker and myself out to the construction site for Love Design Company’s project on Lake Greenwood here in South Carolina.  The Patriot Golf Club I believe is still scheduled to open this spring/summer.  The Invitation came about from a thread here last fall asking about the “Ruins” on the Love course at Barefoot Resort in Myrtle Beach.  The concept behind The Patriot can probably best be described by Paul, but I will try a quick explination of what I saw here.  The Patriot Course is laid out in the area of the state where a historic structure called the Star Fort used to exist.  They have recreated and used as much of the design of the historic structure as it would have been at that time, and incorportated it into the course.  Again I will let Paul address more of the background on this historic structure and how it is tied into the course, but you will see from some of the pictures here that the ruins are an integral part of the course.

The view from the first hole tee shows some remnants of a stand off sentry tower ruins behind the first green.


Paul and Michael survey some of the recent grass sprigs.


We hit a few shots on some of the par 3 holes. This is Paul hitting a shot into (help me on this Paul) I think #3.  Note the Dalyesque backswing, somehow I imagine Paul takes on life with the same gusto.  It was a pleasure meeting you and I hope to get the opportunity again.


Paul hitting a shot from the dirt that will be the teeing area for #7 (I believe).


My attempt at the same hole.  Note if you can see in the background the stone boundry wall that comes into play near the greensite on the right hand side.   (ps I was forced under extreme duress to promise not to post any of the pictures of Michael trying to make a swing with a right handed club since we had none of those backwards clubs with us).


A picture of one of the more picturesque holes here the Par 3 17th.  The water feature you can see short and right of the green site is a finger of Lake Greenwood that comes into play.


Paul at #17


Yours truly at #17 (Note to save time I already have my second ball staged and ready to go)


The view of the approach shot into the 18th hole shows the false front on the green as well as some of the ruins of the Star Fort structure behind.


Unfortunately we had alredy put the camera away before Paul got out the black powder gun and shot off a couple of rounds.

I am looking forward to seeing things after they have all come together and grown in later this year.  
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 03:58:20 PM by Turboe »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2004, 07:59:20 AM »
I now have all the pictures attached.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2004, 08:17:09 AM »
Turboe/Paul -

Thanks for the pics.
I am pretty confused about the historic structure aspect, but hopefully Paul can clear it up.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2004, 11:03:40 AM »
Is white shirt/khaki pants the required dress code there?   ;D

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2004, 02:17:12 PM »
Scott,

You are too quick for us.  Yes you figured it out there is a strict dress code.  What you missed though is that with the Khaki pants it is considered most fashionable to wear high topped work boots.

I guess now we will have to teach you the secret handshake too.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2004, 02:44:17 PM »

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2004, 02:54:04 PM »


 They have recreated and used as much of the historic structure as it would have been at that time, and incorportated it into the course.  
... you will see from some of the pictures here that the ruins are an integral part of the course.

.....  Note if you can see in the background the stone boundry wall that comes into play near the greensite on the right hand side.  
 

If I understand you correctly, the DL3 team built the "ruins",and incorporated them into the course.
I would like to avoid being rude, but I must voice my opinion that this is a horrible idea.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 03:49:55 PM by Sarge »
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2004, 03:17:47 PM »


 They have recreated and used as much of the historic structure as it would have been at that time, and incorportated it into the course.  
... you will see from some of the pictures here that the ruins are an integral part of the course.

.....  Note if you can see in the background the stone boundry wall that comes into play near the greensite on the right hand side.  
 

If I understand you correctly, you built the "ruins",and incorporated them into the course.
I would like to avoid being rude, but I must voice my opinion that this is a horrible idea.

Horrible idea?  Do you mean the wall or the fort?  Expand on horrible?

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2004, 03:44:20 PM »
RCS
To clarify for you, I believe that building a "reproduction" of ruins, and then incorporating the reproduced ruins into the course design as some sort of obstruction is a horrible idea.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2004, 03:44:56 PM »


If I understand you correctly, you built the "ruins",and incorporated them into the course.
I would like to avoid being rude, but I must voice my opinion that this is a horrible idea.

Actually I didn't build anything, I am  just an interested and fortunate spectator who got to tour the property with a fellow GCA participant.  I do not know exactly the story behind the "ruins" and that is why I mentioned earlier that I just wanted to breifly describe them since they are in the pictures.  I am hopeful, and confident that Paul Cowley (or someone with intimate knowledge of the project) will come on and explain it further for everyone.  I do not know all the facts, and ideas behind them and thus will not comment.  I just know it has something to do with a historical Star Fort that used to be around these parts.

Just be patient and hopefully we will all know more soon.

I can only say that it was quite unique how they incorporated it into the entire facility in several ways.  As you can see from the picture posted by RCS it is a central point of the club.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 03:47:39 PM by Turboe »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Brian_Gracely

Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2004, 04:36:10 PM »
Are the cart-paths the same color as the sand, or is that design some sort of alien corn field design down there?  

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2004, 05:28:43 PM »
Turboe
I apologize for implying that you had anything to do with this project. I have since edited my post.

Let me further state that I did not fully appreciate the photograph posted by RCS at first. Now on further and closer review, I see that Patriot is obviously worse than I originally thought. Not only have they reproduced masonry ruins to play around, they have built the course up onto a reproduced earthen fortress. (I mistakenly thought it was the clubhouse site at first.) I don't think Desmond Muirhead could have conceived of this on a bad day.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2004, 06:21:36 PM »
I like the 17th....
if lengthened and configured as a mid-length par 4, would make a great cape-styled hole!

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2004, 11:08:06 PM »
...has been a long day ,but thanks turboe and cliff for your efforts and i should have time tomorrow to answer the questions.

but sarge ,.....struck a little military nerve there ? [i'll ask ,do tell]
....i'll bet you never tried a lot of vegetables because you didn't like the way they looked.

but please come by and play a round with me....i enjoy a challenge  :)

paul
912 222 1616
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2004, 11:21:43 PM »
I'm intrigued, but even more confused than before.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2004, 11:27:30 PM »
SPDB...cause you're irish.............
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 11:29:52 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2004, 01:32:37 AM »
Daryl - thank you for sparing me the righthanded photos. My swing looks bad enough from the left!

Sarge - you obviously fall into the "If it's manufactured I hate it" school of thought... and, that's OK. But, I'd like to give Paul and his team some kudos for their creativity. It takes balls to stick your neck out and invite people to chop on it. They have created something unique that, I predict, will gain favor in the marketplace and I'm really looking forward to playing the course (from the "correct" side of the ball). If it turns out to be anything near as interesting as it seemed on our tour it will be a big hit.

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2004, 08:58:01 AM »
RCS
To clarify for you, I believe that building a "reproduction" of ruins, and then incorporating the reproduced ruins into the course design as some sort of obstruction is a horrible idea.

I just asked for you to elabrate on why it was horrible.  Not to increase your essay word count by restructuring your sentence with the same conclusion of horrible...I would have at least enjoyed your reply if you knew how to use a thesaurus and find a new word for horrible??  But when it is all said I guess you CLARIFIED everything since you fit Muirhead into the discussion of the Patriot!ha you crack me up.  Visit the course then give us your opinion using experience as a basis and not empty cheap words to define your experience.

As for your second reply below

"Let me further state that I did not fully appreciate the photograph posted by RCS at first. Now on further and closer review, I see that Patriot is obviously worse than I originally thought. Not only have they reproduced masonry ruins to play around, they have built the course up onto a reproduced earthen fortress. (I mistakenly thought it was the clubhouse site at first.) I don't think Desmond Muirhead could have conceived of this on a bad day."

Funny comment about Muirhead, I have to step away from the keyboard for a minute because you have me rolling here!!!  

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2004, 11:09:31 AM »
OK, here's why I think this idea is horrible.

Ask yourelf "how different is this from windmills and the clown's mouth?" DL3 has essentially created a theme park to play golf on. I am rubbed the wrong way by this.

Its not that I hate all things that are manufactured, Sea Island Seaside has manufactured sand dunes, but they did it so well, and I appreciate that. Desmond Muirhead made some wild jaws of life and tomohawk shaped bunkers, and I don't appreciate that.

Patriot appears so contrived that it falls in the Muirhead end of the spectrum.

Other things that have no place on a golf course in my opinion (not exhaustive or exclusive):
phony waterfalls
fountains
lights for night play

In summation, I expect Garden City GC is a great course with or without its little pond, but if you put a fountain in the pond, it would become horrible. Patriot may well be a very good route with excellent green complexes and strategic bunkers, etc., but the fort and ruins make it horrible.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2004, 12:08:55 PM »
 the area surrounding the 'patriot' g. c. is one rich in history ,both revolutionary and civil war. like atlanta ,it was at the juncture of important commerce trails.

 the ideas behind the development of the portion of the course that includes the  'fort' were many ;

....providing safe spatial relationships on a rather compact site...
the area around the fort includes the practice range ,the putting green ,the 1st and 10th tees and the 18th green complex. raised earthen barriers could provide the separation needed but how do you provide interest beyond building a 20 'elevated tee with grass sides?....as golf design is essentially earth sculpting ,why not provide a design solution that's interesting from a historical perspective , that makes a very strong design statement ,that allows for some very exciting play features and just might be fun !.
after wandering around many continents as a student of history ,i've always noticed the similarities between the design elements of earthworks and fortifications and design features found in golf........this has been the topic of past threads on this site... especially the more geometric elements employed by raynor et al.
our group visited ft. mc allister ,an earthen civil war fortification outside of savannah ,and found the similarities very interesting.

....creating believable land forms in golf.
if lido and shadow creek are apt comparisons ,i.e. building a land form on which one can then cloak with golf holes ,then this is nothing new....hard edged or natural ,if it makes for good golf ,can this be bad?

#1 plays from an elevated tee off the southern rampart down to a punchbowl green nestled in the remnants of a spur battery...great view of lake greenwood from the tee,and a fun downhill start of ones round.
#10 tee is also elevated and plays off the east rampart.
..the putting green is perched on the west rampart with a great [and safe]view of all that is occuring around it.
...the practice range is close by out side the fort walls ,but accessed thru a vauted tunnel from the forts interior.
...#18 green is located in the center of the fort ,amoungst the ruins of the barracks.the elevated 2nd and 3rd shot requirement for this finishing hole make for a exciting and memorable conclusion.
... one must cross the old moat and pass thru another tunnel to gain access to all described above.

...as for believability, the complex has done well.
some months back,a group of building architects and planners  ,after wandering the site for sometime ,commended the owners for thier vision in preserving the site and incorporating it as part of their development .they said the people and the state of s.c. should thank them for their efforts in protecting this historic site.
the local nat. parks service is also pleased and some re enactment events are already being planned for the future.

.....incorporating hardscape elements in golf design .
we enjoy on occasion designing these features as part of the mix....n. berwick ,the road hole, dunbar ,almost any course with rr ties or walls, provide if done well another element of interest in the round [quirk too].
the 7th hole shown in turboes photos is a short par three where the green abuts a brick wall ....loosely related strategically to the road hole green ,it will play a little dicey as the wall runs on a slight diagonal and OB is only 6ft from the green edge.

......i could go on and on but work becons....but come play when it opens ,the course is more ross in nature with a few fun 'quirks' thrown in .......and you can decide if the course equals our expectations.

and oh,the ariel photo posted by RCS was taken before the outside of the fort was grassed ,and then computer enhanced....the blues ,greens were added,bunkers too.
so far no aliens have answered our call..........
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 02:10:28 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2004, 01:45:55 PM »
I would like to get a round in with you when the course gets closer to opening.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2004, 02:24:56 PM »
Paul -
I'm still confused. What exactly existed at the site prior to construction (either landforms or historic structures). I suspect it was likely nothing of any great significance, otherwise a golf course wouldn't be permitted.

If I understand Sarge correctly, I think he is concerned about contrivances. If I'm right, then he and I share the same concerns. I think it is very interesting when golf courses incorporate existing structures into the design. However, there is a big difference, at least in my mind, to incorporating and creating, i.e. the road abutting TOC #17 wasn't constructed for the course, or to make the course interesting. It existed or was created apart from the course, its place as an enduring and unique feature of the course is merely incidental to the course itself, i.e. it wasn't contrived for that specific purpose.

One of the finest jobs I've seen of incorporating historical features into a course was done at Carnegie Abbey in R.I. The site on which the course was built was the spot where the Battle of Bloody Run took place in the Revolutionary War (so named because, as the story goes, the fighting was so fierce and so much blood was shed that the brook that meanders through the property ran red with blood).

Scattered throughout the site are ad hoc burial grounds for Hessian soldiers who fought in the battle. Although these are not incorporated into the line of play but are rather to the side of the course, they make an interesting historical sidenote to the course.

More centrally, centuries old stone walls run through a couple of the holes, and, in some instances, must be played over/around. They were not built by Donald Steel, but rather are a function of taking the land (and historical structures) as they found it.

I think, however, there would far be less interest in these features if they were constructed for the sole purpose of recreation (or re-creation).

Mind you, nothing of what I say should be construed as disapproval of either the course or the golf course architecture.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 02:25:59 PM by SPDB »

ChasLawler

Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2004, 02:58:26 PM »
SPDB - I'd like to comment on what a thoughtful and politically correct post that was, and also say that I completely agree with you.

If indeed the "historical" structures at The Patriot were recreated (which I suppose we're not sure of in the first place), I would think that would be a dangerous road for Davis Love to go down. Being still somewhat new to the architecture business, is it wise for him to be designing another course so soon with artificial "ruins"? Couldn't that possibly get branded on him as his "trademark" style? And would that be a good thing?

Has the public feedback from Barefoot been that positive?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2004, 03:53:42 PM »
SPDB and ralph ,
  yes ,i would agree that was a nice post by SPDB ,but would disagree with both of your premises .

and ,yes the barefoot course has been well recieved by the public....voted GD 6th best un afordable in 2002 and when i last checked ,it was still had the most play requests.

but more to my point.....most all features of a course are created if they are not found there naturally.
in the cases where they do occur naturally, i.e. the road hole  ,they become included as part of the design.

pete dye did not discover a bulkheaded island at TPC #17 and think what a great place for a green.

does it make a difference what shape these features take ,as long as they perform their function ?

whats wrong with designing an aesthetically pleasing feature that has many functions?  ......creating interest being one of these ?....

« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 04:07:21 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

FREEMAHC

Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2004, 04:04:16 PM »
In the photo posted by RCS, it looks like that 'alien shaped' white thing is simply cart paths leading to a couple putting greens and then the driving range in the lower left. There may be one actual hole in that ohot, but I can't find it. A more dtailed decription would be helpful.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back