[Tom Naccarato]

How dare I come into this great new forum and bring up such a controversial issue? Well, common sense has gotten the best of me again!After reading one of the posts below of Ron and his appraisal of Beechtree and how it is one of the best Doak courses, this is the man that for some arcane reason has ripped Talking Stick for its over the top bunkering which is some fo the best bunkering I have seen in person ever.Let us also not forget that Whitten has praised such goofy layouts as Grayhawk, Has consistently produced the most ignorant list of Top 100 courses in the nation, gave us his hideous ideas on what needs to be done to Augusta National, and has blatantly ripped more deserving of praise architecture in his "Architorture" column.I usually swing 180 degrees from Whitten's views, and I look for him to rip Bandon Dunes to pieces this week when he reportedly plays there.Also, while "The Golf Course" is a recommended reading by me to anyone interested in the art of golf course architecture, it is loaded with huge amounts of untrue facts and glaring mistakes that even he has to be embarrased of coming up with.I would really enjoy reading some thoughts on what exactly has he given back to the game?

[John Sessions]

I agree - Whitten is lost in space. I stopped buying Golf Digest in part because of Whitten's articles. They are annoying and his insight is rarely right.I actually feel sorry for the guy as you can tell he believes his sad stuff.

[Bill M.]

I played with Whitten at Beechtree and was there when he uttered his famous remark. I know he has seen High Pointe (as have I), so the only resonable conclusion that I could draw from his rather bold statement is this: the man is an idiot.

[Bob Ellington]

My favourite Whitten/Golf Digest cock-up was in this year's (or maybe last time's) top US 100. Under the walking section, they had a picture of a golf course and a man carrying his bag. In this ranking for United States courses, the picture was of a heathland course in Britain...Whitten may be well intentioned but some of the things he partakes in are silly, like GD's point scoring system. Giving points to Princeville for a walking policy is ludicrous. The pro told me six people had successfully walked it since the course was opened.It is too bad because he is in a very powerful position and he could really help golf and course design. As it is, I just read Links and GOLF Magazine now.

[Ben DeLow]

I also had to end my Digest subscription this year when I saw the Talking Stick "Architorture" bit. That was sad for Whitten, and sad for the editors that they could let that get in there. They should be ashamed of themselves for printing such garbage when they know better.

[Ran Morrissett]

Suffice to say, you will never see an interview with him at this site.However, having typed that, it could be quite interesting to do an interview where we ask  pointed questions such as the Talking Stick debacle and have him defend/argue his point. Afer all, variety of view points make for a lively discussion group.Still, it will never happen.

[John Morrissett]

I agree -- Whitten's comments on Beechtree and the bunkers on Talking Stick (North) are pathetic.  For the first time, I was tempted to write a letter to GD because of the Talking Stick comments -- I thought the course is one of the handful of best bunkered ones I've seen.The final verdict on him is this: when Atalantic opened several years, Whitten wrote (in Golf World, I believe) that he would not be surprised if in years to come Atlantic were regarded as the equal if not superior to NGLA, Shinnecock and Maidstone.  Enough said.

[DBE]

John, don't forget that:  1) Atlantic is a Rees Jones design and 2) the USGA has already played a Senior Amateur there.  Undoubtebly the US Open is the next. Three Open sites on Long Island, now that's a monopoly.

[Matt Jones]

What did exactly Whitten say about Beechtree?  Can someone provide the text?  Is it on the Digest site?

[John Morrissett]

The Beechtree comment wasn't negative, just of questionable judgement.  Whitten said (I'm not sure it was ever written)that Beechtree is Tom's best course.  Bill M above has confirmed this statement.

[T. Doak]

Jeez, you guys are hard on poor old Ron.  I hate to think what's going to happen if you all show up at the Renaissance Cup.  I still count him among my friends, because he observes some things about my work that others miss -- but I do think he's spent so much time defending his stupid rankings over the years that his own viewpoint has become clouded.On Beechtree, his exact words were that "I think it's your best course yet."  My immediate thought:  if he likes this, he'll hate what we've been building this year [Lost Dunes, Apache, Riverfront].

[A. E. Hanson]

Considering Whitten will boot someone off his panel for taking anything for free, I find him to be the biggest hypocrite on the planet for taking a chartered jet to see Bulle Rock, compliments of the course's owner. (Any coincidence that it won Best New Public??) The Golf Digest editors should be ashamed of not being able to play by their own post-Shadow Creek rules.

[Ted_Sturges]

Mr. Whitten will boot someone off the panel for taking a freebie?  Find me 5 panelists who have never taken a freebie (and I think there are a few hundred panelists).  Better yet, find me 5 panelists who walk the courses when they rate them (and G.D has the nerve to award "extra points" for coursesthat allow golfers to walk!).However, I'd like to see John and Ran interview him.  I think they would ask him some questions that would have us all tuned in for his answers.  Go for it guys!

[Tom Naccarato]

Ted,I think that if green fees are offered for a panelist, then so be, it is the spiff for laying out money and time to go see courses in far and out of the way places. If not, then pay it!  And to let you know, most of the guys in the USGA, golf writers, etc. do the same to access some of golf's great gems.But if offered other immenities such as shirts, hats, rooms, meals, and especially Cessna Citation rides, I'm totally against this. Of all of Mr.Whitten's stipends I'm sure Bulle Rock is just the tip of the ice berg.  There is also Shadow Creek whose ranking and treatment of panelists is legendary.I feel this is a TOTAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST and not a proper way of judging the merits of any course.

[Tom_Doak]

Most golf writers take free green fees?  That's the understatement of the century.  It's one main reason no one in the business laments about how expensive the game is getting.I don't know the details of Whitten's trip to Bulle Rock, but I know in the past he's paid his own way at my courses.  [In fact, he didn't play Stonewall the first time he visited it because he didn't have the cash on him to pay a caddie, and he wouldn't accept one gratis.]  My guess is that Bulle Rock had already won their voting and Ron had to go out to write about it -- in which case, no conflict.I've accepted a lot of freebies myself, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.  What bothers me is for someone to think a free green fee [or even a golf shirt] will really change my opinion of a golf course.  On this score, I firmly believe Whitten falls into the same category.In fact, the most upsetting part of the whole GOLF DIGEST voting thing is that they have hundreds of unqualified people voting, and Ron doesn't vote himself!

[Brad Klein]

First, Ron Whitten deserves all the priase in the world for having pioneered the careful study of course architecture and having helped turned it into a cottage industry. His early writings, largely for "Golf Course Managament" in the 1980's, remain stunning for the carlity, detail and informative quality. Little he has written in the lastd ecade for "Digest" comes close.He also single-handedly carried off "Architects of Golf." Cornish's modest contribution to the first edition, "The Golf Course," was an unreadable chaper on shot-values, and embarrasing drawings of stupid, unbuildable holes. The problem is that Whitten works for a major publishing company which places architecture no. 17 on the priority list, just behind junior golf fashion and ahead of covering the South Africa Tour. He has no space to work with, except for those infernal lists.It doesn't help that Whitten, a lawyer by training and a county prosecutor for years, is so tight-lipped and unwilling to share opinions. So he ends up cataloging designs, proliferating lists, and avoiding any critical and educative posture.Having said all this, he remains a perceptive student of the craft, and I only wish they would let him write more.    

[DBE]

Brad, here, here.  Thanks for shedding insight to what Ron's working with at NY Times Magazines.

[Ben DeLow]

Obviously you too missed the "Architorture" feature on Coore and Crenshaw's unplayable bunkers at Talking Stick...a piece created by Whitten, written by Whitten and pushed through recklessly by Whitten. The boys at the NY Times merely created the problem by hiring him and the out of touch editors he works for.

[Tom_Doak]

To tell you the truth, I think the Talking Stick thing was a "cover your ass" deal.  Everyone knows Ron is very good friends with Bill and Ben, and for politics' sake it was good for him to take them to task for something.At least I hope that was the reason, because the bunkers at Talking Stick are wonderful.  Yes, you can get screwed up against a lip once every few rounds -- but that's golf.  Or maybe Ron's forgotten that.

[Steven Phillips]

Tom,I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous that Ron should write such an erroneous thing to distance himself for appearance sake. It was irresponsible, and if he's that concerned about his status with other architects or his appearance of being non-judgmental, he should have found something substantial to criticize, or should have said nothing at all. He's proving he's not smart enough to find a balance that appeases the readers, and still puts substantial and warranted criticism in print. To my recollection, that's the third time he has gone out of his way to either "distance" himself from them, or just plain knock their standing in the business. I think he's done enough of it, unless of course there is some sort of dislike for their work. SP

[TEPaul]

       What did Whitten say about Coore and Crenshaw's work the other two times?        Tom Doak; You make a good point about so what if you get stuck under the lip of a bunker every now and again. I haven't seen anyone criticize the bunker on the left side of the 10th at PVGC lately, or the one front right for that matter. Talk about getting into your head on the tee!

[Ran Morrissett]

Stephen P. is right - Whitten is responsible for what he writes. If he is pressured into writting ridiculous things,  then he should leave.Otherwise, he will rightly suffer the natural consequence of a ruined reputation that comes from selling out.

[Ben DeLow]

I can think of a classic Whitten "distancing" himself from Coore and Crenshaw moment:Last year ranking them the 18th hottest architects in the business. Even though Sand Hills is the best thing done in ten years and their phones ring off the hook.Oh, and there was the interview with Crenshaw in Digest earlier this year. Not a single question in there about architecture. So why did they send the architecture editor then?

[Bob_Huntley]

Cary,

You are the provocateur.

Bob

[Jeff_Mingay]

Man...

What a classic thread!

Very candid comments from not only Tom Doak and Brad Klein, but also David Eger and some guy called Ran Morrissett! Amazing.

A vivid reminder of how GolfClubAtlas began. Ha!

Apparently, "too many people" are looking in these days. So, the likes of Eger and Morrissett, and others, have "hung 'em up". Which, obviously, is very unfortunate.

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