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Sean H.

Carnoustie
« on: June 30, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Now that all the world will be turning its attention to Carnoustie . . . what does everyone think of that course?  I am in mild shock over the orgasmic joy that seems to be going around about returning to this "championship" course.  Yes, it's long and difficlt and has produced five true champions, but where is the appeal?  It's DEAD flat, offers no glimpse of the sea and has few natural features.  There is absolutely no aesthetic appeal and zero charm.  It somehow even makes Troon and Muirfield look exciting.

John Morrissett

Carnoustie
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I appreciate (and to some degree understand) your views but must disagree.  I count myself among those under the "spell" of Carnoustie and sometimes find it difficult to explain the appeal.First, as with Prestwick and Royal Liverpool, there is something charming about Carnoustie's lack of even an attempt to be attractive.  The firing range (if it is still there) was perfect!  Gunfire, not the surf, should be the background music here.Second, the course's bunkering is a work of art.  The bunkers look so good you almost want to be in a few greenside ones to enjoy them.  The fairway bunkering in particular is outstanding, giving the player on almost every tee a clear message of what he needs to do (or would like to do).  Third, the course is hard as hell, but in an honest way.  If you play well, you score well; if you play poorly, you score poorly.  When playing well, there are few courses I would rather tackle than Carnoustie -- a good round there is immensely satisfying.It is also interesting that almost everyone I know who has played there has come back talking of a "career" round (but still just barely breaking 80); there is something there that stirs the player's blood (and adrenalin).Fourth, Ben Hogan.  It shouldn't be a factor . . . but who cannot get caught up with the mystique of Hogan's triumph there in 1953?

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Carnoustie
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Where would ever body place Carnoustie among the current rota of courses? My list from favorite to least for hosting the Open Championship would read as follows: 1.St. Andrews 2. Royal St. Georges 3. Carnoustie  4. Turnberry 5. Muirfield 6. Royal Lytham and St. Annes 7. Birkdale and finally 8.Troon. Having said that I still think Royal Troon is among the 50 or so best courses in the world.

Bill

Carnoustie
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I would pretty much agree with Ran but I am surprised you don't have Muirfield higher. Everybody talks about its fairness but in this case, it translates to boring to me. I'm glad somebody else agrees. Also, I can't comment on Birkdale - the greens have been completely changed since I was there last.

Bob Ellington

Carnoustie
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I have to say my favorite courses over there are not the British Open courses anyway. I would rather play Cruden Bay than all of them and they will never take the championship to Cruden. I would agree with a prior comment that once you play Cruden, Muirfield seems deadly boring. I know - I played them on back to back days last year.

David Staebler

Carnoustie
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Alas, the firing range is no longer there to the left of the 6th and 7th.  It has been replaced by the fairways of an adjoining course.  On an encouraging note the late 1960's square featureless clubhouse directly behind the 18th green has been replaced.If Carnoustie doesn't have the 4 hardest finishing holes in golf then it must certainly be in the top 3 in that regard.  It is not my favorite course for many of the reasons given above.  If I was introducing someone to golf in the British Isles I wouldn't start with Carnoustie.  I would even consider skipping it on a first trip.  That said, it is a fair, stern test of good golf you just don't leave there on an aesthetic high.

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2006, 04:10:36 PM »
Bump

From last GCA.com page, how will it be set up for the Open

Joe Fairey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2006, 05:13:58 PM »
I've played a lot of golf courses, but none like Carnoustie...it's really difficult, but very fair...a monster with many severe hazards....it seems to me that no two holes play in the same direction, thus the wind is always coming at you from a different direction...tough to score...looking forward to this summer..

Yancey_Beamer

Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2006, 09:06:09 PM »
Extremely strategic.
Extremely plain.
Extremely difficult.
Extremely super difficult last four holes.
Members can tell you exactly where Hogan played his key shots.
Extremely perfect,one of my top ten.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2006, 09:10:17 PM »
I can't say I love the course, but it is hard not to respect it.  It has the best finishing holes in golf.  Number 17 is one of the most difficult holes I have ever played.  I would not want to play it every day but once in a while it is a real test of your game and patience.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2006, 11:33:27 AM »
A wonderful place. Wonderful people. Phenominal links ground that will have you wondering which way is the sea several times during the round. You can hear it, but can't see it unless you walk up to the top of an old sand dune. (I knew where it was the entire time.)

If ever was there a perfect example of what links are in it most evolved state--waters receeding, leaving this wonderful ground behind--then it's Carnoustie. But then again it's fellow Great Links across the forth might slap it around a little! :)

The closing four holes are some of the best testing golf you'll ever find, in fact, I think the entire golf course from beginning to end is simply solid golf architecture that has evolved so well over time.

The entire place is so imperfect that it's perfect, at least as good as it's ever going to get right now that they should just stop and not do anything more--in terms of changing any holes or adding any new bunkers. (Like at the famed 6th)

ForkaB

Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2006, 11:40:15 AM »
Tommy

You'll be happy to know that they have restored 6 to pretty much what it was, and also probably happy to know that they have cleared out a lot of the trees (such as behind 6 and 7).  You might be less happy to see the new 3rd (controversial, but I'm getting to like it).  You'll all be happy to know that they are unlikely to be watering the course from the start of June or so.  It should look and play great.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2006, 11:49:28 AM »
Rich,
 What exactly did they do tho the 3rd?

I remember getting caught in that back bunker and it was just a disaster getting out!  I know they had a bunch of turf issues with that fairway too didn't they?

ForkaB

Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2006, 12:46:48 PM »
Tommy

I don't remember there ever being a back bunker on the 3rd.  In any case, if there ever were one, it is gone!

The hole now is full of centreline hazards, most significantly a diagonal ridge from the dunes on the right angling left and forward to about the midpoint of the fairway.  It is a 260 yard carry over the right side, but there is a lay-up area left and short.  The view from the tee is obscured by a big patch of rough at about 210 off the tee in the middle of the fairway.

The hole confuses you off the tee, much as does the 17th, as you wonder where if anywhere you can hit the ball.  As it is, however, there are a number of options, which should make it an interesting hole next year.

Cheers

R

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2006, 01:18:40 PM »
Rich,
 The bunker that used to be behind the green was sort of a fall-off Papazian-like, "F-Me" bunker. In fact it was actually two of them if memory serves me correct, which given my current dealings with Alzheimers.....................Where was I?.....Oh yes, I got caught in it and couldn't get out. Took me about three shots. However, this wasn'ty as funny as seeing me play catch, bunker to bunker on the 8th. (for that front pin)

I think I took a seven or eight after the three putt. Funny thing was I hit a good shot off of the tee! Well sort of!

Looking forward to the Carnoustie Guide!

Mickey Boland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2006, 12:59:12 AM »
I played Carnoustie this summer and thoroughly enjoyed it.  Thought it was a good test, but very fair, and not as hard as I had been led to believe and expected.  Most of the trouble is visible, and driving areas were fairly generous.  Our caddies pointed out some of the tees that would be used during the Open, and it would certainly make a much harder course than the one we played.  Also, we played in fairly benign conditions.  I had a hard time with the greens for whatever reason.  Last four holes are tough.  My caddie told me on the 15th tee that if I played the last four holes in even par he would waive his fee.  I imagine he makes that bet a lot and has yet to not collect.  He collected from me.  

Doug Spets

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2006, 10:04:35 AM »
Before playing Carnoustie last June, I was concerned that it wouldn't live up to the hype.  But from the opening tee shot on...it's a brute.  Not scenic...but some of the hardest holes you'll find.  I haven't found too many courses that will punish a shot that isn't hit exactly where it needed to be hit as severely as Carnoustie will.  A long drive on the 10th (South America) will still leave you with at least 200 yards to a green fronted by a burn.  The finishing four holes are something.  If you go...ask your caddy about the story about the name of the 10th hole, and the suggestion box installed after the 1999 Open.

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2006, 10:43:42 AM »
Great Open venue. Great test of golf. Not my cup of tea.

RT

Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2006, 11:07:09 AM »
Some people I see commenting here do not consider it a 'scenic' course.  One comment calls it plain.

Can I hear some opinions what the scenic element is that is lacking?  Or the plainness of it?


Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2006, 11:14:23 AM »
Some people I see commenting here do not consider it a 'scenic' course.  One comment calls it plain.

Can I hear some opinions what the scenic element is that is lacking?  Or the plainness of it?

There are no exciting dunes, no views of the sea, not even any great sweeps of open land - and there's nothing on the horizon except trees and the quite dull and industrial townscape of Carnoustie itself. I don't ever feel like I'm communing with nature at Carnoustie, an element which often softens and enriches the experience of playing a difficult test of golf.

Cheers,
Darren

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2006, 04:15:30 PM »
There is a great deal on until March. Play all 3 Carnoustie courses for £100.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 04:18:59 PM by Matthew Hunt »

peter_p

Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2006, 06:01:24 PM »
I think only one person in the TOC Reverse thread has mentioned wanting to play Carnoustie. The last time I played Carnoustie our group was pared to three before we teed off. Shortly after we finished and made inquiries we were off to the big hospital in Dundee where our fourth was under the knife. Playing it is like taking the examination in your least favorite, but necessary, class. The third kicked me, too.

RT

Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2006, 04:12:31 PM »
Having spent some time out there I find that Carnoustie is part of the local scenery, and visa versa.  Im already missing the cilos that have been taken down about 6 months ago.  And I miss, probably like TommyN, the old derriere ugly clubhouse that said to me this is about playing golf.  All outside elements formed part of the context of the courses.

There is so much happening on the ground I can not see the plainness of the course for all the interest in the rolls, ripples, indentations of the Championship golf course.

RT

« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 04:13:37 PM by RT »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2006, 12:00:05 AM »
Carnoustie, a wonderful test of golf but dour and grey like the town itself. As Dan Jenkins once remarked to his caddie at the end of a dismal round played in rain, fog and cold, "Eh, Jock, you would never take this for Cap d'Antibes, now would you?" I am sure the response was "Up yours, Yank,"

Bob

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