[ian]

I have not seen the course, but I will as I cheer Europeans on (er...sorry the English roots are showing).

I have had a few friends play there this summer and all of them said they liked the course but could not understand what all the fuss was about. The general concensous was that the course had great set of greens, and was a stern test of golf, but otherwise was remarkably average.

Please help me understand the courses greatness

[Brian_Gracely]

I grew up caddying and occasionally playing OHCC, so I can attest to the challenges of the greens.  So it pains me to hear that they might be moving some of them in response to a need for added length or "toughening".  

To some extent, OHCC benefits from a tremendous history.  But like Tom Doak wrote in the 1996 US Open program (which I was looking at the other day), the course still has most of Ross' greens and most of his routing, but a good portion of the Ross soul was taken when RTJ created his "Monster".  It's been 50+ years since Hogan's victory, and the caliber of champions has not been great since then (except Nicklaus in the Senior Open).  And Walter Hagen was only the Pro for 1yr...and a pretty bad one at that.  

The one thing that OHCC has, similar to Oak Hill & Oakmont, is a membership that embraces the challenges of hosting champonship golf.  So with the '03 Amateur, '04 Ryder Cup and '07 PGA being played at OHCC, the course will stay inthe forefront for several years.  But it's lack of space to expand and the existing placement of bunkers, especially RTJ's pinched fairway bunkers, are just not the same challenge they were years ago.  

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

Great?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Difficult to describe, but let us break it down.

Issues:

Architects- Ross, RTJ, Hills, etc. Certainly many people award points for Ross (even though the course is substantially changed).

History-many majors (though not always won by the bigger names lately)

Routing/design-mildly rolling terrain, bilateral  deep fairway bunkers are common, as are greenside bunkers (used to be craggy and flashed up and now not), green complexes are punishing (3-4 elephants/green buried, imparting preferred positioning for approach shot-key to the course), requires thinking/strategy, patience, and equanimity. Great maintenance-the greens are firm and true. Note: an old quote by Ross stating that "God meant for this land to be a golfcourse"-or something to that effect-may have helped set the tone (and to be repeated by more modern architects ad nauseum).

Minuses:

Two busy streets border holes 1-5. Noisy. Hate that.

Far more trees than originally (look in G Shackleford's book the "Golden Age...").

Generalization-Members are not the nicest group you will meet (many loud, salesman types who are VERY high on themeselves and the history of the club). Obviously, one would find a number of people that share interests and are good people, but I am referrring to the "feel" of the place (includes the snobby help).

Practice area is cramped.

Clubhouse remake-the old place had character. The new place is a wonderful, NEW place. Depends on what one defines as beauty (NEW men's grill has overstuffed leather chairs, big screen TVs, very much 3rd millenium).

Expensive-100k and waiting list (not sure how large at this point with the economic woes).

Overall. Nice place. Challenging. Fun to play. Many knowledgable people have the same question you have...

PS-the amateurs made the fairway bunkers appear misplaced by about 50 yards. Incredible. Haas would have had 28 strokes on the front nine in one of his matches (it was in the match play portion of the US Am).

[Brian_Gracely]

...but if I still lived in MI, I'd definitely play OHCC everyday of the summer and have no complaints.  I'd even go over and play the North Course from time to time.  It's definitely a place that benefits from the entire atmosphere, from the HUGE clubhouse to the kilt-clad sentry at the front gate to the wall of past champions, to the Gary Player marker on #16 to the chance to play with one's Detroit Tiger idol (Al Kaline).

In fact, I change my answer....although I can't give a list of supporting details other than a stiring of the soul...but OHCC great.  

Maybe that's just my hometown bias talking , but I'll be cheering on the Americans with all the other golf-loving, blue-collar, Big Three driving, Go Blue cheering, Motown fans.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian,

Its a little like Medinah and Cherry Hills, or like a lot of courses with championship history.  Its on average land, and it probably got its championships because some civic leaders in Detroit thought is was good for the city, the USGA likes to rotate events around, and it was the best course going at that time in that city.  Hogans victory and Players great shot (who says he wasn't a great champion?) cement its rep.

I toured it on a cold day a few years ago and saw some merit, but didn't like it as well as other courses.  (Of course, on a winter day tour, the course doesn't present all that well)

In addition to the RTJ bracketing bunkers in the fairways (which I think Art Hills moved back to 290 yards or so) the greens are as severe as anything this side of Oakmont.  So, anyone who thinks high scores by pros is great architectecture is going to like this course.  As you know, those contours were a result of Jones simply extending many of the Ross greens, so the contours are different in many cases than anything I've seen.

It is certainly one of the best examples of the "stern examination of golf" design theory the USGA uses for their championships, and is worth studying from that standpoint.  

And it does have some interesting holes, like one reverse slope green.

[Brian_Gracely]

jeff,

thanks for reminding me about Player's PGA victory.  I don't recall his victory speech, but I'm sure it was the most important championship he had one over the most difficult course he'd ever played  

[Robert Thompson]

Ramon makes interesting points in taking the course apart, but I'm not sure what the conclusion is. Seems to me that he's saying it is good, with some standout points, but remember, according to Golf Magazine this is #25 in the world, and #8 in the Digest U.S. list. It seems to me that, having played Oakland Hills, when you put it in the company of Merion in the U.S. and ahead of the likes of Carnoustie in the U.K., then the course should have some strong selling points. I wonder if 18 good to great greens is enough.

I'm the one Ian was talking about at the start of this thread -- I played Oakland Hills with an architect from Doug Carrick's firm in Toronto. Both of us walked away shaking our heads a bit over this one....

And after walking the PGA this past August, I don't even see the comparison between Oak Hill and Oakland Hills....

Robert

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

JB wrote "probably got its championships because some civic leaders in Detroit thought is was good for the city, the USGA likes to rotate events around, and it was the best course going at that time in that city.  Hogans victory and Players great shot (who says he wasn't a great champion?) cement its rep."

That is about right. It was started by some auto execs. I seriously doubt their altruism (interest in the city versus their own satisfaction)...but that may be cynical. Hogan's quote proably did as much for Oakland Hills reputation as anything prior or after.

RT-I did not really state whether the club deserves its reputation, but merely tried to vivisect the joint, as you mentioned. Maybe, the mere fact that one questions the ranking/rating is telling? But, we do not want to devolve into the ratings game. It is an enjoyable and challenging place to play golf and would be more enjoyable after a culling of the heard. Do not underestimate the greens. They can make the strongest of individuals weak in the knees and uncertain.

[Robert Thompson]

Ramon: Thanks for the response. I wasn't actually playing "the ratings card," in my comments, just using those courses as a reference. Your point is well stated -- I wonder how many other so-called "great courses" are beneficiaries of politics and championships which elevate them beyond their true stature?

Robert

[Matt_Ward]

Someone of great awareness wil have to explain to me how Oakland Hills / South gets the 8th best position -- at least, according to GD's latest 100 Greatest poll.

The course was simple overrun by college kids (e.g. US Amateur) the last time a big time event was played there. The redundant and quite yawning bunker scheme created by RTJ is simply not unique in any measurable way.

I don't doubt that the greens have plenty of bite on many of the holes you encounter -- the par-3 17th is also a superb hole I might add). However, as someone pointed out it helps being in the right part of the country and clearly civic pride has helped push the course along. It also doesn't hurt that Hogan bagged an Open there as well and provided the "monster" tag that carried on the reputation of the course. I also agree with Doak that the 16th is a fine hole but is it really one of the top 18 as Dan Jenkins stated from his original top 18 listing in SI? Not in my book though.

What has happened recently -- two major league duds of events -- the '85 Open with Andy North and the '96 Open with Steve Jones. Forgive me while I catch a few winks. Yes, Jack won there (Senior Open) but forgive me -- Oakland Hills / South needs to rejuvenate itself with the upcoming Ryder Cup matches. I've played the course a few times and simply believe the course is running on the fumes of yesteryear.

I'd rate it among my top 100 but it would be fighting very hard for a top 50 position. The competiton among golf courses is more current and clearly pushing out a few of the big names from days gone by.

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

Not to highjack the thread, but there are other nice Ross courses in the area. Some of the others are without the same maintenance standards, or money, (though Franklin Hills CC may be better on a few of the counts and Bloomfield Hills members are likely employers of many OHCC members) but comparison would also question the "greatness". This ? based on ratings...Syllogism: If I thought _______ CC/GC was terrific, as good/almost as good as OHCC, but _______ CC/GC is not rated, then OHCC is overated. Conversely, _______ CC/GC should be rated higher if OHCC is appropriately rated.
 

As for civic pride, I am not so certain that the average factory worker gives a Sh*t. But do not mess with the Red Wings! It does help that the largest industrial complex in the world ($$$$$$) and largest industry makes it's home in the area. Money talks and bullsh*t walks. Really. It is a "city" of contrasts.

Follow-up on the North course...well maintained. Good place to park your car when a big event is going on south of Maple Rd. NOT of the overall quality of the South course. In fact, if it was the only course for the club one would have to seriously question the desire to be member. It is nice for a change, but at times gives me a cramped and lack of flow feeling. Sorry I cannot be more specific, but the artistic side of the brain is working right now.

[ian]

I know it is an excellent test, largely supported by those excellent greens; but is it strategiclly interesting off the tee with some risk and reward, or is it just an examination of execution.

Do you need to work the ball?  Do you have to manufacture shots, or is it in aeriel attack only.

Was this course choosen for th Ryder Cup for particular reason (beyond the large population and corporate support)?

I have no agenda on this one, I'm just trying to learn more about the course before I go there.

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

IA

One needs to know the course to score well. Preferential locations on the fairway help to set-up approach shots, that need to be accurate and leave one in the proper location on the severe greens. There is not much strategy along the lines of a cape hole or cross-bunkering (more execution with knowledge).

I hope that helps. One cannot help but enjoy the course, but as you may have reckoned by now, I question the greatness. Matt Ward's analysis of recent tournament play is spot on.

When you visit the area (are you visiting the Ryder Cup?), consider a look at Franklin Hills CC, Bloomfield Hills CC, Detroit Golf Club, CC of Detroit (Colt/Alison with Rees doctoring), Essex in Windsor. Maybe Meadowbrook too, though I am not intimately familiar with it. Wigler will have a cow if we don't throw in Plum Hollow, but that is another story.

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

MW on 16...

Righto!

The "ranking" is more a function of Gary Player's memorable shot and less the quality of the hole. I think a number of the holes are better/more memorable, but I ain't no Jenkins either.

Ramon likes 2, 9, 10, 15, 17, 18 to name a few.

I wish TEP or PM would chime in and add some spice to this pot.

[Tim_Weiman]

MW/RTH:

FYI, one of Jenkin's rules in selecting his best 18 was that the hole must be the hole number it actually plays. Still, when you consider his alternates, you may have even more doubts about selecting OH's #16.

Here are the other courses whose #16 received consideration:

Merion - (which was the only course with two selections)
Shinnecock
Cypress Point

Neither Shinnecock or Cypress Point had any holes that made the final cut.

[Brian_Gracely]

So all the hype was because Jenkins refused to have a Par 71 (CPC) or 73 (SH) course?  Is there no shame...??  

[Tom_Doak]

Matt W:  Winged Foot West is in your top ten but Oakland Hills struggles to make your top fifty?  Other than the fact that the college kids haven't been to Winged Foot lately, can you dissect the differences between the two for us?

Head start:  both are parkland.  Both have great sets of greens.  Oakland Hills has a little more topography and a bit wider variety of holes.  Neither one has much in the way of finesse holes.  OK, continue ...

I think it's a very good parkland course, overrated a bit because of its championship heritage like all the other Open venues [except Pebble, Shinnecock, and Pinehurst #2].

As for shotmaking, the "masse" shot Chi Chi Rodriguez hit into the last green at the Senior Open was one of the most awesome shots I've seen in the last twenty years, but he didn't win so it is quickly forgotten.

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

MW said, "Someone of great awareness wil have to explain to me how Oakland Hills / South gets the 8th best position -- at least, according to GD's latest 100 Greatest poll."

Interesting, though not exactly an answer to the question, Tom Doak awakened from an afternoon repose and noticed a question was awaiting...good on ya Tommy boy. Keep up the good work and thank you for your presence and thoughts. It is a gift.  

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

Brian Gracely

You obviously have memories of OHCC. Though, I wonder about the Kilt Klad guy. Did you see him on the way in or on the way out (after the 19th hole).  

I've spent considerable time at OHCC and I've never seen this creature.

[Brian_Gracely]

Ramon,

It's been at least 15 years since I've been around OHCC, so I assume alot has changed (ie. your comments about the clubhouse).  I've also heard that the kilt-klad gentlemen only comes out for the Invitationals.  

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

BG

Not that it matters, but not for the Hagen to my knowledge(maybe the Piper?).

Any kid growing up in Detroit and loving golf will always have a fond spot for OHCC, even if it is slightly over-rated. Some of the shine hase been tarnished by the members and staff, too. I always find it interesting when people are snobbish (particularly when they have nothing of their own to claim superiority)...most unprofessional caddiemaster i have ever encountered. Kinda like the guys at a nice haberdasher, that give ya the up and down and snicker. Don't need them.

PS when you are cheering the yanks, with the other Yukon XL drivin, wolverine lovin', backwards red wing ball cap wearin', overeatin', DEEEtroiters...don't scream YOU DA MAN or spill any beer on the europeans. They have enough disdain leftover from the CC.

[Brian_Gracely]

RH,

I move away from home, they tear down Tiger Stadium and now you're telling me that OHCC is a place of large egos.  Next thing you're going to tell me the RedWings don't play at the Olympia anymore or that The Big Three don't build the best cars in the world .

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

okay, man...architecture, but not golf. i think tiger stadium stands (last time i drove by). olympia does not. i came across a ticket that was ~$7.50 from the 70s stanley cup playoffs with the Habs the other day. Remember that place? Odd angles. Hindered views. 8000 coats of red and white paint everywhere. something cb macdonald would have come up with.  i remember playing there...kinda the same worship/distortion that contaminates our thoughts about OHCC.

http://www.tigerstadium.org/home.html

read and weep. with "copa", it is hard to imagine tiger stadium being of much use...but i have memories of the lions playing in the mud on thanksgiving after going to a farm and cutting down our christmas tree. drunk guys and me trying to figure out what the hell was goin' on.

[ian]

I'm taking away from the comments so far that this is flat out a great test of golf, not fancy, but incredibly solid. Would this be comparable to many of the Flynn courses that I came to admire on last summers travels?

Do the features look modern and is this the ain sourse of the criticism? Any comparison to Aronimink?

Ramon,

Thanks for the list, I have played Detroit Golf Club, Meadowbrook and Essex. I will try see the others along with Indianwood.

[Ramon T. Hernandez]

Ooopps...you are so right about Indianwood-Old. Incredible. While I have not had the fortune of playing the "linksland" of Long Island (NGLA, Shinnecock, Piping Rock, Maidstone, etc)...Indianwood-Old is the best that is offered in these parts. It is like a step back in time. Do not miss it!

I played Huntington Valley (without any preconceived ideas) and remember a marginal experience (don't worry, I have my helmet on). Really. Played with Jackie junior (I told him i always wanted to play with Jack W. Nicklaus, but not II), Jim Flick, and some other guys...I remember that more than the course (except the hilly terrain). Sorry. As for the question of modern...well, hmmm. Recent bunker work took away the "white faces of merion" and left more defined, sterile looking bunkers. Ramon liked the ones from the 70s and 80s...you want to feel a walk back in time, go to CC of Detroit. You will feel like Henry Ford will come walking out of the locker room or grill and say hello. If you do go to CCD, you must check out the locker room (same lockers from the first day it opened) and clubhouse (it is like Greenfield Village but actively used)...huge fireplaces, ornate woodworking, gentle lighting, etc. Another place i forgot to mention...Red Run GC. It is a Willie Park venue. Ray Hearn is doing some work. The greens are interesting and difficult.

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