[Tom_Doak]

One of the most perplexing problems to me in how courses are judged is the placement of back tees.

Low handicaps and GOLF DIGEST voters insist on playing a course all the way back and "rating" it from there.  But what if the architect would like to put in a couple of tees which should only be used in certain winds or at certain times of year?

If we put them in, and the winds aren't there when Mr. Low Handicap plays the hole, he will immediately label it unfair.  If we don't put the tee in, and the hole is downwind, he'll probably judge it too easy or not having enough driving hazard.

This isn't only an issue for rankings, of course.  There are way too many golfers who insist on playing "the whole course" wherever they go, and when you combine this with a client who has pretensions of holding a Tour event, the result is almost always a disaster.

I've always suggested that my clients don't put tee markers on the back tees -- the few who insist on playing from there can usually find them -- but instead use a couple of the back tees for the next set of markers and spread around the wear and tear.  Unfortnately, not enough follow this idea; they say they have to put the markers near to where the course has been rated and sloped.  Which is one of two reasons I hate the Slope System.

[CHrisB]

Thoughts that pop into my head:

1. You almost have to go to extremes like Pete Dye did at Kiawah Island (Ocean), where he put in enough teeing grounds to give the course flexibility in the wind but where it is so long that you would have to be insane to play it or rate it from all the way back on every hole.

2. I thought Arcadia Bluffs had a good system when I played there: one set of tee markers for regular play, with several sets of tees on each hole but no tee markers on them. It's up to you to decide where you want to play from (not only which tee box, but which part of the box - left, right, front, back).

3. There is little defense for the rater who fails to recognize how varying playing conditions will affect a hole or course. You can't hold their hand out there while they are evaluating your work.

4. I wouldn't pin this all on low handicappers.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Don't take that GD rating criteria so literally.  Next time you see Ron Whitten, ask him when was the last time he played a course from the tips?  My guess is sometime in the 80's    

Not all GD panelists play from the tips.  If fact, my guess is less than half play all the way back.  They may study the design from the back tees, but they sure don't have to play there and many don't.  For example, do you really think most (any) panelists step on to the 8000 yards tee boxes at The Ocean Course and give it a go.  Not!

Furthermore, most of these guys can tell when a gorrilla tee was throw in and they don't diss the hole because of it.  Most of these guys use common sense and review things accordingly.  

Just my opinion,
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Chris,
Interesting we were both thinking about The Ocean Course.  My rely was sent at the same time as yours.
Mark

[A_Clay_Man]

Mr Doak, You touch on the cause for this concern, the principles ego, and the desire to host da' boyz. Souldn't the solution be found somewhere in there? If this guy wants this so badly, why not make the solution cost him? Connect your "special" tee box with irrigation and turf and maintenance costs aside. Hell, this is the mans ego. No costs should be spared.


(tounge in cheek unless it a good idea then its all yours)

 I can see it now, Tom Doaks signature feature, the massive "BOOOMERANG TEE". It will encompass every concievable angle for every conceivable wind and just be one huge smiley face. Not only a tribute to man and his domination over nature but a little thank you from the crew for padding their check with the extra your gonna charge. That should put an end to it, or just make the course play 6800 yards and let everybody play the tips.

Sorry for the rant, I get so excited when egos are involved.

[Scott Seward]

Tom -
The USGA Course Rating System can accomodate spreading tees around, the permanant markers (where a particular tee is rated from) simply must be placed at the center of the teeing area. If there are two pads sharing one rating, then the marker can be placed at the back of the forward pad or at the front of the rear pad. As long as the yardage balances (for instance, on the next hole where this situation occurs, do the opposite marker placement), then the system will work. Your owners have been misinformed or are too determined to have each pad rated.

So hating the rating system for this reason does not wash. Your other reason I don't know about.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

You should not really say this;

"Unfortnately, not enough follow this idea; they say they have to put the markers near to where the course has been rated and sloped.  Which is one of two reasons I hate the Slope System."

Course rating teams can and do "rate" and "slope" courses from all tees or markers if that's what the golf club wants. The problem arises when a course has 5-6 separate sets of tees or markers (again all of which can be separately "rated" and "sloped") and the club needs to figure out how to fit all those separate tees or markers with their separate ratings and slopes onto their scorecard!

But what the Hell, now that the stymie is gone and no one needs to measure it any longer maybe it's time for scorecards to get larger than six inches (once standardized to measure the stymie) so all the tees or markers and all the separate ratings and slopes can fit onto the card!

[Mark_Huxford]

Tom, just reading between the lines here. I know you built a few "easter eggs" at Cape Kidnappers to preempt additional tees being added after you had gone—something that happened at Kauri Cliffs—but ideally you didn't want to see them used for a few years. Are they playing the full yardage up there straight away?

[Matthew Mollica]

I too thought of Ocean Course. From previous posts, playing the course at it's maximum length sees a course around 8000yds? Some posters have said that some tees are only used with particular winds. Much as Tom spoke of in the original post.

I think that one would nominate a set of back pegs, which would be reasonable to use for low markers in medal play in relatively benign conditions for the site in question. That would be the official course yardage for cards etc.

I would then note the presence of auxiliary tees with an asterik or similar mark on the card. I'd colour them differently, and maybe even refer to them as WD (wind dependant) tees.

I'd provide a sheet at the starter's hut indicating which was to be used for the day (if any), so that you were less likely to get 'explorers' looking for an extra challenge, teeing it up where they shouldn't.

Some of the effects of wind upon play / course strategy are inescapable however. Sometimes we stand on tees where we have to think in a really different way, because the wind is so strong / different. To me, that is a beautiful part of our game.  No matter how we try, we can't eliminate this. Nor should we.

Matthew

[John_McMillan]

If I know a course well, I'll sometimes play certain holes from "the tips" to give a variety in strategy.  For example, the first three holes at High Pointe play very differently depending on the tees selected.  Strategies on the second hole in particular can very greatly depending on whether you're trying to carry the bunker in the middle of the fairway, and what club you're using from the tee to try to do that.  

The way courses and tees SHOULD be judged is based on the variety of strategies the different tees bring into play.  With many designs, the only difference is whether a particular forced carry is either difficult (from the front tees) or impossible (from the tips), or which set of lateral hazards (bunkers, lakes or trees) come into play from the tee.  

An interesting list might be courses which are playable, but with different strategies, from the back tees.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Let me point out something regarding "playing from the tips" or as a friend of mine says "blue tee syndrome."

I played Pebble Beach for the first time probably about 25 years ago. I can also remember they simply did not have any tees anywhere near the middle of the regular tees -- never mind the championship position. The course STILL charged top $$ to play the miniature version of Pebble. I was absolutely fuming because we really did not play Pebble as intended. I have no problem with front tees being mandated but make sure there is a commensurate drop in the fee to play the "B" version course.

I don't doubt too many people insist on playing back tees and the result is as you describe -- a certain death march will develop. I've played Bethpage Black for 30+ years and have seen this happen time after time.  

On the flip side I think it's only fair that those who ARE legitimate low handicappers have the opportunity to play the "real" course. My $$ is no less valuable to me than it is for others who are playing.

I also think it's fair to say that distance alone is not necessary to make a point architecturally with any number of holes. Take the 11th at your design at Apache Stronghold. I actually believe the hole plays better / slightly more demanding from the tee marks at 150 yards rather than from 176 yards. The angle from the middle tees is more demanding and the space between the front bunkers and the wash that guards th eleft side is quite narrow. The slightest pull and it's adios amigo!

[TEPaul]

I've been a low handicapper for years but I've also never hit it anywhere--basically just pretty straight. I also love playing any golf course I've never played before from the tips--simply so I can see what it's all about from back there. I don't do this or want to do it for no reason though other than my interest in seeing how the course plays from back there because I've had to play from the tips despite not hitting it far during all the years I played an incredibly huge schedule of scratch tournaments from basically the tips of all those courses. Few know how to sneak up on long holes better than I do in something other than GIRs. What I'm saying is I've never overestimated my ability about distance-not even close. But if any course from the tips doesn't give me some way to proceed off my best shot other than a penalty relief situation something is wrong with the design, in my opinion. Basically the only really tough non-alternative situation I've ever faced in tournament play was the 18th at Merion but even that one I was confident I could make a bogie at least.

I don't think this tip tee question should be one about raters and what they think--it should be more about potential tournament play--obviously mostly stroke play and what the architectural alternative is for even scratch or low handicappers of all distance capabilities in certain situations.

If a course is designed with an absolutely no alternative forced carry of say 230 or 240 or up, in my opinion that's frankly just poor design and I dont think any architect should be forced into something like that even by his client!

[TEPaul]

TomD;

With this particular question raised by you--if that tip tee on #16 Stonewall North really is something like 230 or 240 my recommendation to you would be to tell Stonewall they should loose it or obsolete it because it certainly seems to be a no alternative situation. It could turn out to be worse than that Sigel Stonewall1 tee which even in the most premier tournaments they've held (Pa Opens) it was never used. It's a dumb tee that isn't worth the maintenance of the grass that's growing on it!

[Thomas_Brown]

I'm guilty of the ego factor dictating the tee I play from.

Consider the system in the UK where tournament play is from a special set of tees.  Regular play is from the middle tees.  Always struck me as odd when I was there.

Also, Rustic Canyon #14 Cape Hole - Shack. says that back tee is only for tournament play, but almost everytime I'm there it seems like the back tee is open.

I played the tips at Riviera a few weeks ago.
#18 should be considerably more interesting this year.

I've also done the death march at Bethpage Black.
When I was younger in the mid 1980's, my game definitely did not belong on the back tee.

[Rick Shefchik]

Outside of tournament play, I'm not sure I understand the need for tee markers at all.

Let players or groups tee from wherever they please -- a lousy golfer is going to slow up the course from the white tees just about as much as he's going to slow it up from the tips.

I think a golf course is best played, hole to hole, from the tees you believe to be the best suited to that particular day's conditions. If you've got a big wind at your back, that long par 4 doesn't seem like that much of a challenge played from the whites. If the wind's in your face, why put yourself through the misery of playing it from 460?

Tom P, better to make the scorecards smaller rather than bigger. In a tournament, everyone plays from the same distance. In a non-tournament round, who really cares where you played it from?

[Andrew Summerell]

I've never been one who has HAD to play from the tips. I tend to mix it around.

Developers always have certain expectations of their course, even if those expectations are false. I don't like the resort style of providing 5 tees per hole, but I understand why it is done.

Maybe, if there is a set of 'tournament' tees that are way back a surchage could be placed on the use of them. In other words, to play off any of the other tees a round may cost $40. To play off the back tees a round may cost $50. Of course, this is tough to police, but many of these sort of courses tend to have rangers & drinks cart driving around, so they could quick easily check on this.

Personally, I just like to see courses designed as the land would allow. Not specifically for a particular purpose like tournament play. The Australian Open has just been played at a course that was designed specifically for that tournament & frankly I believe that mind set has ruined what could have been a good course on a nice piece of land.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I've always suggested that my clients don't put tee markers on the back tees -- the few who insist on playing from there can usually find them -- but instead use a couple of the back tees for the next set of markers and spread around the wear and tear.  Unfortnately, not enough follow this idea; they say they have to put the markers near to where the course has been rated and sloped.  Which is one of two reasons I hate the Slope System.

That's what we do at The Ocean Course.  The Gold tees are usually set at around 7,300 yards.  We don't have tee blocks up on the majority of the back, back tees (Nos. 4, 6, 7, 9. 10, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17).

Oh, BTW, I can count on one hand the number of GD panelists who played TOC from 7,300 yards.  Most play from the Blue tees which measure 6,552 yards...

[brad_miller]

I believe Winged Foot went to somewhat of a mixture a few years ago. Prior it had middle and back, now it has set that is something of a hybrid. The 2004 US Open course would be a great place for this also, many times the gap on #'s 9 and 18 is more than 40 yards.

[Brian_Gracely]

I played a course recently that had separate back and middle tees, and ratings for both of them, but certain holes were much more scenic or challenging from the back tees.  So the club had a "hybrid" rating for playing the middle tees (which most people played) and those 3-4 back tees.  

This doesn't stop players from playing the wrong tees, a constant ego problem, but maybe it allows the courses to steer people towards the proper tees except in those instances where they want to play certain holes from the "wow" tees.  

But your "depending on the weather" scenario seems like it's going to be tough to plan, as ground-crews only put out the tees once a day and the weather could easily change throughout the day.    

[Paul Richards]

Matt makes a very good point:

>I can also remember they simply did not have any tees anywhere near the middle of the regular tees -- never mind the championship position. The course STILL charged top $$ to play the miniature version of Pebble.


I have encountered this situation on many of my visits to resort courses, especially on weekends and holidays.  From the perspective of the course, I can understand it - holidays and weekends tend to bring out more 'leisure' golfers - who would clog up the course because of their lack of playing ability.  The resort wants to sell as many tee-times as they can and people on vacation rarely enjoy a "Bataan Death-March", so what does the resort do to "speed up play"?  They move all of the tees up 'one' teeing area.  

This means that when you look at the card and decide to play the 'blues', you are actually playing the 'white' yardages.

Or the 'black tees' are actually placed where the blues are measured from, thereby meaning that there are no markers on the 'tips.'

In addition, many places seem to put their pins in their 'easier' places under these circumstances.

Hence, the problem that Matt mentions - you pay full price for a miniature version of the course!

[JWL]

TD

Thanks for addressing a subject that has been a source of aggravation for me for a long while.
I think designers generally strive to put as much variety as possible into tees, especially on par threes, so that different shots can be contemplated in different conditions.   Therefore, when par threes (for example) have distances that are similar from the back tees, then this is often regarded as a mistake.   What this does, in fact, is allows, and we certainly encourage it, to have the superintendent move the tees, not only to eliminate wear and tear, but to help the player get a different perspective on a shot, rather than the same club, same shot, round after round.   Obviously different angles are important when possible, especially when pre-determined with certain pin positions.   Their is infinite variety, if the superintendent will only take the time and pride to maximize the course variety.   I, too often, find that this is not the case, and no matter how much direction and encouragement I give, it is rare to find someone with the pride in his course to  try everyday to maximize his presentation.
The same can be said on Par fours and fives, especially when involving varying wind conditions, as you suggested.  
I really don't think any course is presented properly if every hole is played from the tips.   However, I must admit, I am as guilty as the next guy when it comes to always going to the back tee.   But, if I was the setup guy, I would demand that it be different.   That was one of the many nice things I enjoyed about playing at Pine Valley.  One set of tees, and they all were not leaning off the back of the back tees.   I guess as I get older I am more prone to appreciate that viewpoint. LOL
Happy New Year to all!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jim, Judging from what I saw of your game off of the tee that day at Strawberry Farms, that is an understatement! If I remember right, wasn't that a Orlimar Tri-metal club what you were using off of the tee on #14?

Happy Holidays to you and the family!

[Steve Lang]

 

the older i get, the longer i used to be..

just once or twice a year please..

and i don't care if you don't want me there mr. ranger

if i've paid my money and play fast it shouldn't matter

[THuckaby2]

I do this all the time also.  And yeah it screws up one's posting, but what the hell, I just sorta self-balance that out... that is, tees are up and back and middle all the time anyway, so what's a few yards here and there?  If I make for too wacky of a course, I just don't post.  If it's at least close to playing one the established tees, I figure it all balances out in the long run.

With the esteemed Mr. Huntley, let me guess... you had to play the tips on the first par 3 (#4 - site of a very famous ace) and you absolutely had to play the tips on the over-the-ocean #14... other than that, it was at least one set up, with maybe a set up or back here and there?

TH

[THuckaby2]

Very wise choice for the tees given the soggy conditions (and isn't it a drag drainage isn't better on the Dunes?)... and those are also darn fine holes to step back on!

Talk to ya soon....

TH

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