Happy about the Presidents Cup

« **on:** November 21, 2003, 12:51:35 PM »

I, for one, am rooting against the US side in the Presidents Cup. As a red blooded and otherwise patriotic American citizen this position is a tough one.

I eagerly want to see Jack Nicklaus and his sons lose this one, thus extending their poor record in this competition. This team should have been captained or at least co-captained by Lee Elder or another African-American golfer of stature and significance to the game. Letting Nicklaus get this position simly to avenge his losing streak was just plain wrong. His stubbornheaded refusal to name Elder to the one spot he so fervently campagned for is an overt slap in the face at the history of black people in US golf.

I rarely get upset at this kind of thing, but after having dinner with Elder as a speaking guest over a year ago, I really saw the passion this man possessed and his recounting of the
dishonor he endured over his years on the PGA Tour really left me touched.

Let's go Intl's!

« **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2003, 03:32:34 PM »

Slapper:

I don't think Nicklaus' selection as captain had much at all to do with "avenging his losing streak."

It was widely reported a year ago that the Tour was afraid that several big-name players would pass up the chance to spend a week in South Africa playing for their favorite charity. It was speculated then that if Nicklaus were captain, few of the big names would have the gumption to decline his invitation to participate. The same, unfortunately, could not be said for Lee Elder.

« **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2003, 03:45:48 PM »

I wasn't aware of the circumstances surrounding Jack's captaincy vs. an Elder captaincy. I'd much rather have a contingency of players that want to show up and play hard for the USA and Elder rather than show up for Jack. Doesn't Jack have enough laurels? I think we could've done better for our team and the spirit of the competition. At least Curtis Strange isn't the captain.

« **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2003, 04:13:14 PM »

What's wrong with Curtis? His players stunk not him.

« **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2003, 04:27:09 PM »

Tom,

You make a very valid point. But truth be known, Tiger's Dad privately lobbied for Lee Elder and even asked Jack to consider him as an assistant after the cpataincy choice was made. In both cases, Tim and Jack truned him away.

I am just very sorry to see a great and poignant moment be spoiled by Jack and his team of spoiled brats(if what you say is true). Jack's "losing streak" was a reason cited to Lee by Tim Finchem, et.al....

I second the WSMorrison theme...I'd rather watch a "Loveless and Philess" team try harder for Lee.

« **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2003, 05:50:30 PM »

Mr. Hurricane,

Strange played on five Ryder Cup teams, though only one of them was a winner, in 1983 at the PGA National Golf Club in Palm Beach Gardens. His overall record in the matches was 6-12-2. Yes, he won 17 times on tour including 2 US Opens, but what did he know about winning Ryder Cups?

His players may have stunk but they were captained by a stinker as well. Certainly the strategy Strange employed on Sunday was dreadful considering Torrance's move to front load the matches with his strongest players. Before the matches were underway myself and many of my friends gathered to watch knew we were in trouble. Strange's reply that it had never been done before clearly was a demonstration of a poor memory or that he was just shell-shocked.

Granted, captains usually get too much of the credit and the blame. Strange deserved little if any credit for his work and certainly shared in much of the blame. Do you really think he was a capable captain?

« **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2003, 06:09:48 PM »

Shivas,

You're point is valid, but the argument would be that Lee Elder only won 4 tournaments because he wasn't allowed or invited to play in many events through much of his career. It's tough to say where he should rank in the echelon of past players considering how limited he was in the ability to even play in events.

Jeff F.

« **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2003, 06:16:03 PM »

One could argue that the conditions under which he won 4 were harder than those faced by most of the other competitors. Also, the position is largely political anyway, I think the point of choosing Elder would have been nice. I'd be shocked if anyone had the guts to say no to playing for him - the PC climate certainly wouldn't allow it, good reason or not.

Plenty of average competitors make great leaders/coaches/managers/captains - probably more so than the star competitors, actually. How strong of a record do Mark James or Sam Torrance possess (asking this for real as a semi ignorant American, not trying to be a smartass, maybe they've won more than I know)?

« **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2003, 06:55:23 PM »

Shivas-If you are just asking that is fine and yes the color of his skin does matter in this instance. What is so wrong with symbolism in a meaningless event? especially when this event is being held in South Africa? Have you questioned the qualifications of the assistants to Jack? At a minimum Elder should have been appointented an assistant, he did ask for this position also.

I also think it is a little unfair to "rate" elder's ability as a golfer based on four victories when he was competing at a time when he was unfairly discriminated against.

I agree with Slapper on this.

« **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2003, 07:07:12 PM »

Shivas,

We could go round and round on this one and your facts are straight. I have a question though. What value do you put on growing up in a climate that did not allow Lee Elder to even play the game, let alone compete? One could argue that he lost many formative years to a racist society that stunted his growth in the game. Maybe winning at age 40 is a bigger feat in relative terms after all he went through to get there than some guy having a four-win year.

All this is speculation and what if's. What I do I feel is that his career might not be on the level of the greats in terms of wins and majors, but it would rank WAY up there in terms of perseverance.

Jeff F.

« **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2003, 07:13:09 PM »

There was only one intelligent solution to this problem. Elder should've been named captain and he then could've named Jack his assistant and then all the players would've still had to go!

« **Reply #11 on:** November 22, 2003, 06:14:00 PM »

Tom is right as usual

It is fitting justice that Jack/Jeff & Sons are looking up at the leader board and seeing red ink and 0-2.

Just once, I'd like to see the powers of golf give something back to those they spent so much time disenfranchising!

« **Reply #12 on:** November 22, 2003, 07:31:36 PM »

Interesting issue and highlights the different perspectives.

I wonder if the symbolisim would be wasted everywhere but here in the states. I can only speculate that the wounds that need healing over there will be much slower than the 138 years we've had.

Was Al Campanis involved in this decision?

« **Reply #13 on:** November 22, 2003, 09:23:59 PM »

Who designed the golf course they are playing on this weekend?

« **Reply #14 on:** November 23, 2003, 07:31:54 AM »

Quote from: A_Clay_Man on November 22, 2003, 07:31:36 PM

Interesting issue and highlights the different perspectives.

I wonder if the symbolisim would be wasted everywhere but here in the states. I can only speculate that the wounds that need healing over there will be much slower than the 138 years we've had.

Was Al Campanis involved in this decision?

Adam,

Interestingly, I think South Africa would be the only other place on the planet where the symbolism inherent to this situation would shine brightly. I'm prone to believing that steps like this are exactly what hurts/could help the US image around the world. It is not a hard stretch of the imagination to see where our perceived arrogance (and short history) could be defrosted with simple steps like these.

That is exactly why I remain so aggreived. The PGA, in its infinite wisdom continues to pander to its blind examination of its history and its ignorance of the present climate.

Go Intl's!

« **Reply #15 on:** November 23, 2003, 07:38:09 AM »

I believe Bob Walker of the Gary Player group was the lead architect at the Pres Cup venue.

JC

« **Reply #16 on:** November 24, 2003, 08:58:47 AM »

Slapper- There was a ton of speculation in my reasoning. The most obvious one was how many non-whites in So. Africa know golf or any of it's players? Combined with the exclusivity of the venue and I wonder how many Blecks attended as spectators or how many were looking for a new club. Was it televised in S.A.? How many Tv sets and stations exist outside of the major metro areas?
All the answers I could come up with tell me that the symbolism would only be known and/or relavent to a guilt riden America.

« **Reply #17 on:** November 24, 2003, 09:26:34 AM »

Quote from: A_Clay_Man on November 24, 2003, 08:58:47 AM

Slapper- There was a ton of speculation in my reasoning. The most obvious one was how many non-whites in So. Africa know golf or any of it's players? Combined with the exclusivity of the venue and I wonder how many Blecks attended as spectators or how many were looking for a new club. Was it televised in S.A.? How many Tv sets and stations exist outside of the major metro areas?
All the answers I could come up with tell me that the symbolism would only be known and/or relavent to a guilt riden America.

Adam,

Once again, all good points and ones I have asked myself. SO I wrote a friend in S.A. and he informed me, indeed, it was televised on both national TV and local cable(no info on # of TV sets outside the metro areas). He did say that although there is a very smal l black golfing population, the whole country seems to think it may eventually bear the next Tiger Woods. He said the Cup certainly didn't hurt exposure to the black population...

You may be right, but it certainly couldn't have hurt, right?

« **Reply #18 on:** November 24, 2003, 10:33:16 AM »

wsmorrison -

I do not recall all of the matches, but if Mickelson, Love and Woods win their matches, we win the Cup. So what if they top loaded their team that means we should have had a cakewalk on the bottom and our best players blew it. In hindsight, his strategy was fine, but the execution of it was flawed. So, yes, I think he was a capable captain.

« **Reply #19 on:** November 24, 2003, 10:35:50 AM »

"I, for one, am rooting against the US side in the Presidents Cup. As a red blooded and otherwise patriotic American citizen this position is a tough one."

I wonder for whom the black South Africans were rooting in the playoff?

« **Reply #20 on:** November 24, 2003, 10:41:18 AM »

Quote from: rgkeller on November 24, 2003, 10:35:50 AM

"I, for one, am rooting against the US side in the Presidents Cup. As a red blooded and otherwise patriotic American citizen this position is a tough one."

I wonder for whom the black South Africans were rooting in the playoff?

Rgkeller,

I don't know for sure, do you?

I do suspect, however, it would be easier to root for the team with Gary Player, Nick Price and Ernie Els....all guys with long established records of anit-apartheid stances and support!

« **Reply #21 on:** November 24, 2003, 10:59:57 AM »

Unlike many here, I do not make a habit of asking questions to which I already know the answer.

« **Reply #22 on:** November 24, 2003, 11:15:19 AM »

Slapper,

You are right on. Gary Player supported multi-racial golf tournaments in South Africa probably before rgkeller was born.

« **Reply #23 on:** November 24, 2003, 11:19:40 AM »

Sadly, your assertion about Gary Player is almost certainly incorrect.

And Els - a member of a wealthy Afrikaner family, was in the playoff, not Player.

« **Reply #24 on:** November 24, 2003, 11:51:47 AM »

"Equality of opportunity is the essence of the true golfing spirit, or at least it was until we Americans started to snobbify it."

Yes, Americans are well known as being enemies of giving opportunities to everyone and our insistence on maintaining strict classes of society.

Unlike the British and the Indians, for example.

News:

Steve Lapper

Tom_Doak

wsmorrison

Jim Franklin

Steve Lapper

wsmorrison

Jeff Fortson

George Pazin

corey miller

Jeff Fortson

TEPaul

Steve Lapper

A_Clay_Man

jg7236

Steve Lapper

Jonathan Cummings

A_Clay_Man

Steve Lapper

Jim Franklin

rgkeller

Steve Lapper

rgkeller

Bob_Huntley

rgkeller

rgkeller