[Paul Richards]

Considering a winter golf-trip (mid-January or mid-February)to Dallas, Houston, and/or Tulsa.

Can anyone tell me the likelihood of the weather cooperating at any of these locales during that time frame?

Thanks in advance.

[RT]

Tulsa is a definite miss.  You might have snow, freezing rain, bitter temps, and wind chill factors enough to scare a cash-flow accountant.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Paul - bring a snow shovel if you plan a Jan trip to Tulsa.  Dallas can be cold, too.  Get further south to Houston or better yet, the hill country.  There are half a dozen courses worth seeing in the Austin/San Antonio area - and Brad will appreciate each one you play!    

[Mike Nuzzo]

At the beginning of last Feb a good friend from Philly came down (to Houston) for some winter golf.  Of course it was much colder than usual.  We only got in 5 rounds.

Dallas in Jan when compared to Houston, is like comparing Boston to NYC only a whole lot warmer.

For whatever reason my golf travels have been much further than Austin/San Antonio so I can't compare their relative merits to Houston, as to quality of golf.

For frame of reference...
we played Cypress and Jack Rabbit at Champions, The Forest course at Kingwood and a newer 36 hole complex built on a landfill - Wildcat.  I already have his next trip planned when ever that is...  Blaketree National, BlackHorse North and South and 27 at Magnolia Creek (all are public).

[Lou_Duran]

Paul-

I would write-off Tulsa for sure.  Dallas could be hit and miss during that time, though we get many great days during both months.  Check to see when the Fort Worth rodeo is in early Feb. and avoid that week.  For some reason, horrible weather and the rodeo seem to occupy the same time on the calendar.  Weather-wise, Houston might be a safer bet, though, the quality of golf at the top-end might be higher in Dallas.  The second half of Feb. would likely be better.  In Dallas be prepared for some frost delays, rapid warming, and possibly some wind.  In Houston, rain is often an issue, though perhaps not as much during that time.  If I am still playing golf by then (I might become a Dan King apostle and just play the game in my mind where I can still break 80) and you would like company, please let me know.

[Steve Lang]

Paul,

   No question, for the weather, go for Houston, check out fares to both Bush-Houston Intercontinental (IAH) and Houston Hobby (HOU) airports and if weather is truly nice in Dallas and you want to sample, its only 45 minutes away by Southwest or about a 4 hour drive.. with some nice course along the way.  If you head for Austin or San Antonio they're higher elevations and colder in Jan & Feb.

Houston temps are very mild in winter (versus northern Ohio where I grew up), last couple of years I've only worn my pull-over windshirt with a sweater or some thermals at worst.  Must be global warming!  

Check out
http://www.houston-guide.com/facilities/general/hmpfastfacts.html

Mike's choices are very good sampling, Blaketree is far north and Magnolia Creek is southeast side.. Lots of options in between..  For a winter get-away, there's plenty of great golfing here!  These two and many others are architecturally stimulating, but Donald Ross never really got to do much here.

You may want to do a north -south-east-west or quadrant sampling over about 6400 square miles of The Greater State of Houston!  Everything public is pretty affordable and you can check out discount coupons at GOLFQ.COM..  I used a two for one coupon last week at Magnolia Creek..  

Also take into account how many holes and travel times.. Don't forget traffic in USA's 4th largest city is significant during rush hours, but manageable due to intersections of I-10, I-45, 610 Loop, and Beltway 8.  Better than Chicago!!!

You're welcome to check out The Woodlands with Ms Sheila & I, or we'll join you at Blaketree, our favorite venue on the north side.  

Regards,
Steve

[III]

Paul-

being from Texas I would say no to Tulsa and to Dallas.  Dallas could be 80 and beautiful or 30 and icy.  Your best bet would be Houston.  I spent Christmas and New Years there 2 years ago and was wearing shorts most of the time.  Also as others have suggested, you might try Austin or San Antonio.  Let us know what you decide because I have played a ton of courses in Houston, Dallas, and the Hill Country.

Best of luck!

[Michael Goody]

what would you play in houston if you had no private access?

what if you had access anywhere?

i go to houston a lot for work, but haven't played much golf.

[Thomas_Brown]

Low cash flow
--------------
1) Memorial Park


High cash flow
--------------
1) TPC Woodlands


If you drive North and east 2 hours, Crown Colony is exceptional.

I haven't tried the new Hermann Park, but my guess is that it's still a disappointment.

[Steve Lang]

 

Tons of public courses, use the search feature on Houston and you'll find previous discussion..  On a thread last spring I posted a very long list of Private and public courses..

Northside
Blaketree National near Magnolia is a hidden gem, High Meadow ranch and the old Fish Creek now called WoodForest at Fish Creek (Elkington), are also very close by there in Southern Montgomery County.

You could play Cypress' Tradition,  Redstone, or Tour 18 near the airport..

Blackhorse, Glenn Loch Farms & others northwest

Downtown
Front 9 at Memorial Park is a favorite mid day get-away from my downtown work place.. 5, 6, 7 & 9 great stuff..

Hermann Park is better than it used to be, but still a flat track..  uninspiring..

Southeast Down I-45 just outside beltway 8
27 Scotland, ireland, & England 9s at Magnolia Creek in League City or Timber Creek in Friendswood, Galveston Muni can be fun in wind if you go another 20 miles south on I-45.

East
Eagle Point

West
Meadowbrook Farms

etc.. etc... check out
http://www.golfhouston.com/courses.htm

[Paul Richards]

Dear Houstonians:

If you had access to any courses, what are the best 5, in which order?

Thanks.

[Steve Lang]

Paul, Here's what the local raters picked in 2002 year..  Can't beat the private venues!

March 12, 2002, 2:35PM
GOLF GUIDE 2002
The top five private courses at a glance
The Club at Carlton Woods
Location: The Woodlands.
Designer: Jack Nicklaus.
Opened: 2001.
Director of golf: Mark Steinbauer.
Telephone: 281-863-5820.
Why it's hot: Carlton Woods has newness working for it, but our panel members agree that it's here to stay. The course has great variety, some nice — but not drastic — elevation changes and one of the best par-4s in the state (No. 15).

Champions-Cypress Creek
Location: Houston.
Designer: Ralph Plummer.
Opened: 1957.
Head pro: Tad Weeks.
Telephone: 281-444-6449.
Why it's hot: Tradition, tradition, tradition. It's been home to a U.S. Open and a Ryder Cup. It is a straightforward course that doesn't have any trickery or blind shots. Good players love it because it's a fair, demanding test.

Lochinvar
Location: Houston.
Designer: Jack Nicklaus.
Opened: 1980.
Head pro: Warren Chancellor.
Telephone: 281-821-0220.
Why it's hot: It's one of the last remaining examples of why they spell it G-O-L-F: Gentlemen only, ladies forbidden. No matter who's playing it, the course rates with any in the area. Great piece of land near Bush Airport.

Walden on Lake Conroe
Location: Montgomery.
Designers: Robert von Hagge and Bruce Devlin.
Opened: 1976.
Head pro: Ron Coville.
Telephone: 936-448-4668.
Why it's hot: Always rates as one of the top courses in Texas. It got new greens last year, and the 11th hole, which reaches out on a peninsula into Lake Conroe, still might be the best par-5 in the state.

Shadow Hawk
Location: Richmond.
Designer: Rees Jones.
Opened: 2000.
Head pro: Paul Marchand.
Telephone: 281-494-3533.
Why it's hot: Lots of pecan trees — but not so many as to may you claustrophobic — make this course look like it's been here a lot longer. It's a gorgeous property that can be a difficult test.

The best of the rest
River Oaks, Houston: The only Donald Ross design in greater Houston is a classic, old-style country club course.

Houston CC, Houston: It's long been one of Houston's golfing jewels.

Royal Oaks, Houston: Fred Couples course opened in 2000; location and layout have made it a popular newcomer.

Deerwood, Kingwood: The Kevin Costner movie Tin Cup was filmed here, but it's this course that deserves two thumbs up.

Bentwater-Weiskopf, Montgomery: Along the shores of Lake Conroe, this is one of the area's underrated, unsung heroes.
Bentwater-Miller, Montgomery: Not quite the course of its sister, but combined, this is a classic club that members never get tired of.

Lakeside, Houston: It's undergoing a renovation, but the basic layout is a winner. The 18th is one of the best closers around.

Champions-Jackrabbit, Houston: Redone by Tom Fazio last year, it is closer in stature now to the Cypress Creek Course.

Kingwood-Forest, Kingwood: Best of the Kingwood bunch. Holes running along Lake Houston are terrific.

Houstonian, Richmond: It's got plenty of character and plenty of water.

BraeBurn, Houston: Redone in the early '90s, it's got some of the most fun holes in town.

Woodlands-Palmer, Woodlands: Part of The Woodlands' charm because it has courses designed by Palmer, Nicklaus and,  soon Player.  (PLAYER COURSE IS NOW MY FAVORITE IN WOODLANDS!)

Kingwood-Island, Kingwood: The mega-club's courses tend to run together, but this one is all the challenge you want.

Bay Oaks, Houston: Some sensational holes dot this club, which is by far the best in the southeast quadrant.

Sweetwater-Pecan, Sugar Land: Combines lots of trees and is a test for anybody.

Woodlands-Oaks, Woodlands: Getting a long-overdue face-lift, but any course that once had a PGA Tour event is legitimate.

Pine Forest, Houston: It's got 27 holes and some of the smoothest-running greens in town.

Raveneaux (Old), Houston: Sits lower than Champions, which is across Cypress Creek. When it's not flooding, it's very good.

Riverbend, Sugar Land: One of the underrated gems on the southwest side.

Kingwood-Lakes, Kingwood: As the name suggests, load up on balls before tackling this water-loaded course.


March 12, 2002, 2:07PM
GOLF GUIDE 2002
Older courses: The rankings
Course   City   Avg. points
per ballot

The Falls   New Ulm   130.11
TPC   The Woodlands   129.60
Memorial Park   Houston   117.50
Old Orchard   Richmond   108.70
Greatwood   Sugar Land   95.70
Tour 18   Humble   86.10
Longwood   Cypress   79.66
Battleground   Deer Park   77.87
Wedgewood   Conroe   76.33
Bear Creek-Masters   Houston   76.00

Others receiving votes: Del Lago, Cypresswood-Cypress, Cypresswood-Creek, Bay Forest, Columbia Lakes, Bentwood, Cape Royale, Southwyck, Evergreen Point, Stephen F. Austin, Cinco Ranch, Houston Oaks-Oaks, Atascocita, Texas National, Pine Crest, Clear Creek, Rio Colorado, Chambers County, Jersey Meadow, Clear Lake, Houston Oaks-Links, Treeline, Beacon Lakes, Kingwood Cove, Sharpstown, Bayou, Brock Park, Fox Creek, Bear Creek-Presidents, Gus Wortham, Glenbrook, Friendswood, Freeport, Lakeview, World Houston, Green Meadows-Old, Houston Hills, Pasadena.

[Thomas_Brown]

Steve - I forgot about Bear Creek & Old Orchard in Sugarland.

I like Old Orchard quite a bit.
You'll see some USGA qualifiers and college tourn. there.
When I was there in 1996-98, Old Orchard was considered one the best of the high end daily fee variety.

[Paul Richards]

Steve:


Thanks for all the great information!

[Paul Richards]

Any thoughts on the Tour Championship being held this weekend at Champions?

[Steve Lang]

Paul,

Check out info at http://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/r060/course.html



I've walked this course during the last three times the Tour Championship was there (97, 99, & 2001) and view it as a classic course around here.  While some question it's GCA attributes, saying its boring, blah blah blah, its definitely a strong test for mere mortals who play it.  The main tests are "execute the shot and find the pin," no real funny business, just straight ahead golf.  Bring your ol' power game too!

[ChipRoyce]

Paul...
I'd second Jonathan's suggestion about San Antonio / Austin based on weather. There are days during that time of year, that depending on cold fronts, etc.... Dallas and areas north (only 3 hour drive) are 40-50 degrees... and here in Austin, we'd be seeing short sleeve weather (60-70 and warm sunshine).
That said, there's a lot of golf to be played here in the area.  Some strong daily fee at Avery Ranch, Star Ranch and Barton Creek. Private at Austin CC (Dye) and Austin GC (C&C) are quite good from what I hear. I'd enjoy hosting you over at Great Hills (Pvt), not far from downtown if you make it here at that time.
Please let me know if I can provide add'tl info.
Best,
Chip

[Paul Richards]

Chip:

Thanks so much for the offer.  I played many of the San Antonio courses just last January, so was actually looking to try to hit someplace I haven't visited yet!

[Mike Nuzzo]

Dear Houstonians:
If you had access to any courses, what are the best 5, in which order?
Thanks.

Paul,
Private:
For biggest clubhouse and highest maint budget:
Carlton Woods in the Woodlands - it's a good course. 6(nicklaus) - empty.  caddies?  long walks.  lots of other woodlands courses.  the TPC is a 4.5.  

Shadow Creek - 30 min south west - close second for oppulence - it's also a good course.  6 (rees jones)  Houstonian is part of the 36 hole complex and a 5.  should be empty.  caddies at both.

I like Champions -  Cypress.  6.5 And think the fazio re-do of Jack Rabbit is also a good course. 6  best walks.  lots of homes on Jack Rabbit.  Pinehurst #2 inspired greens.

Blaketree National is my favorite public - 6 - almost one hour northwest of downtown.  original routing by coore and crenshaw.  they didn't work on the back nine.  would have been awsome if they had.  the course has also been making bad changes on the front.  still most fun public.  the quietest course in the area, by miles!!!  great walk.  best terrain in houston, because it's not really houston.

Private: Whispering Pines - 6.5 - very fine chet williams 2 hours north east of town.  might be hitting cold territory?

Newest public fare:
Blackhorse south, Magnolia Creek, Meadowbrook Farms, Cypress Tradition (if good conditions, lately are quite poor due to maint cuts) are all solid 5s and significantly better than Old Orchard and Bear Creek.  But is a 5 worth staying an extra day?

[Mike Nuzzo]

blackhorse south has a very good finish - 5 holes.  magnolia creek is generally better but doesn't have a better stretch than the above - 27 holes - easy to walk all 27 at once.  magnolia has better wind - more open - faux links.  blackhorse has 36 holes, fewer homes on the south.  not easy walks.

I play memorial mostly.  closest and best bargain.  easiest walk.  no homes.  lots of crazy loons too!  the other public courses just aren't that much better, if at all.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Paul, go south young man go south. Houston has the best chance for good golfing weather in January. I will be glad to meet you there for a round or two

[Matt_Ward]

Steve L:

With all due respect p-a-r-d-n-e-r the golf at Champions is simply forgettable stuff. Talk about non-descript architecture! There is new stuff in The Lone Star State that is warp drive ahead of the 36 holes you find there. How the Tour Championship is conducted on such a low level type layout is beyond me.

Look, I don't doubt it's long and when you have bermuda rough pinching in from the sides it can make it play tougher -- but no one will EVER confuse Champions with the elite layouts in the USA. How it landed an Open in '69 is testament to Burke / Demaret and the $$ boys in pushing things ahead.

I'm watching the golf intensely this week but the golf course will simply be in the way in my book.

FYI: I've played each of the 18's twice but have not played either since TF came by. If I had to offer some advice -- head to the Hill Country for some solid terrain and good golf offerings. San Antonio is also a worthy stop if time permits.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, I feel you are being way too tough on Champions. It is a very solid strong big golf course when anybody but the tour plays it. They dumb it down by speeding up the fairways say 40 yards a hole. I wish I played with the better green speeds for they are large and grainy. I understand it is on a fairly nondescript piece of land. Yet, I think it is full of very strong par 4's and great par 3's.

[MarkT]

Has anyone been to Wildcat in Houston?

From what I have been told, the dirt they removed to build Reliant Stadium was used to build 18 of the 36 holes. Be interested in knowing what the 2 courses are like.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger B:

Surely you jest!

Let me give you an example of two different tour venues. If you took Westchester CC where they hold the Buick Clasic annually you would find a Travis design that is simply delicious stuff. You have elevation changes, a wide diversity of holes and a number of unique greens that are either placed on top od rock croppings or in other superb locations.

What you have at Champions is dullsville -- just like the guy who won the Open there -- duuuuuuuul! I mean what else did Orville Moody E-V-E-R do (besides his win at the Sr. Open)?

The course is the personification of Houston-flat! The bunkering is simply forumlistic type stuff and the lone feature is that it can be stretched to force the big boys to hit drivers. (footnote to those reading this) -- I'm actually taking a stand against the long and boring layouts that I have been way too often accused of being supportive of.

Look, Champions (Cypress Creek & Jackrabbit) are just
"b-l-e-s-s-e-d" with land that makes the heart STOP! How the Tour Championship keeps going there is beyond me -- I think of Champions as The Belfry of Texas. I'm watching this week because there's much to be decided -- but the golf course is simply dreadful type stuff IMHO.

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