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RJ_Daley

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Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« on: October 21, 2003, 10:47:48 PM »
I’d like to do a picture series of Sutton Bay basically hole by hole, and make some comments along the way.  I'll have to do this over a couple of days and save comments for the end.  But, I'll also try to respond to your impressions...  Thanks to Brad Swanson for lending me his home page server space. Yet I will need more to finish the last 3 holes. :-\

An opening tee shot par 5, from tips 661 and middle tees 581, with a long downhill forced carry.  One sees a sliver of fairway past a notch of native grass and stone terrain.  Management indicates they are going to widen the left first LZ.  Always downhill – this hole, the second shot has plenty of room up right side and a big target green slightly fall-away to left.




The second, par 3 at 151 or 141, is to a deep green, narrowing as it recedes back to the bunkers seen straight away.  A staircase of grass bunkers along left side of the green falls from putting surface about 30ft.  The elephant in the yellow shirt opted for a 5 iron spanked crisply into a strong wind.



The third, par 4 of 395 or 376, gives you a generous and rumpled fairway up right, but don’t hook or be off line on a greedy left direct line at green.  A skyline green is guarded close at right entrance or from further out on left.




The fourth, yet another long 651 or 553, with very long back tee carry to fairway.  Once again, a tumbling downhill fairway from 2nd shot, to a fall away skyline green guarded on left and right entrance, with a surprise just over the seen right fronting bunkers. Check your yardage books!




The fifth, at 173 or 165, up on the shelf, multi-tiered with backboard, false front, mean fronting bunker.




The sixth, 434 or 407, great driving hole, to a generous top right shelf lay-up safe, or drive to a speed ramp tumbling down left to lower left shelf and open shot at green.  But, if you don’t make it deep up leftside on direct line, or miss speed ramp by hooking left, you are deader than whoever is buried in Grant’s tomb.  No recovery from there, hit a provisional, make your own rule for a drop or go back to the tee.



The seventh, 405 or 386, again downhill to narrowing fairway slot and swale until an uphill rise to a well contoured green open on left.  I know a certain fellow that is helping me host these pics that would be thinking of driving this hole at 405!!!




The eighth - can it be?  Another, or third 608 or 573 yard hole? Yup.  Lots of room out there off the tee; next play short or right of an encroaching from left mounded nest of bunkering, guarding a long and deep angled front right to back left green, still a ways beyond the mounds.  Oh, and this one ain’t a tumbling down the draw easy 600 yarder either!



The nineth, at 206 or 178, is a reverse redan if one were somewhat upside down.  The lower tier is front left, with redan like bunkering guarding right front side, with uphill rear tier.  Thus, no kick plate to back rear pin placements.  A treacherous green to putt.  Sorry, the only picture I have of  9 is a fat grey haired guy hitting a shot to lower left tier with pin perched on upper right side.  

The tenth, 393 or 345 was a puzzle to be figured out for this writer.  It appears to slope steeply from high left to down right.  A grass depression mid fairway bunker in the fore landing zone, is to intimidate but easily cleared with a comfortable drive.  A ball sailing over the right side of the depression one would think would have to tumble down right.  Guess again!  Each time I hit that shot, I would find my ball somewhere up the left high side.  A big driver of the ball can get down a speed ramp to a front row chip up to the green.  But, a drive remaining up on left high side has an inviting look down to the green that has a cradled front left pin pocket and a spine separating to a back right runaway rear area.



The eleventh, 562 or 535 has a narrow entrance with native grass and rock fields encroaching from left and right to the first landing area, that broadens wide if you get to it.  The second shot is to a widening field of play with a nest of bunkering somewhat in middle high left of fairway, with room further left for an approach from a high side left sort of around the field strategy of play, or a wider lower right side. The mid-fairway nest of bunkering here, like back on 8th hole is well crafted.  





The twelfth, 401 or 368, higher left to lower right fairway, falling into a large field of bunkering on lower right. Green approach favors left side but a false front if you come up short and challenging high right side approaches over massive bunkers to back right pins.



You can take a break here at Swampy Graham Marsh’s Shack if you didn’t stop after the 6th hole.

The thirteenth, 214 or 187 plays down through a gap between rocky, grassy terrain.  Guarded at entrance by bunkering on both sides.



The fourteenth, 419 or 376 has a tee shot through Mae West like mounded gap to widening fairway landing area.  The second must play up and over a massive bunker fronting the somewhat skylined green complex that is falling high left to down right.



The fifthteenth, 531 or 507 has familiar high left to down right fairway LZ with plenty of forgiveness room down right for short and sliced shots.  Second shot sets up to favor approaches from left.  A massive mound of South Dakota hard scrabble rock and native grass partially hides the back right of green.  Bunkering wraps around the base of that fronting mound.  





I will have to stop and leave the last 3 holes for tomorrow.  My host hasn’t got the last load of pictures up on his server.  I regret I probably crashed his memory allotment.

I’ll save my overall comments about what I think is the big picture at Sutton Bay and personal impression of how I’d rank this course until a later post.  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2003, 12:21:34 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Brad Swanson

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2003, 10:58:12 PM »
RJ,
   Nice report (and send me the rest of your pics, I've got plenty of space and bandwidth).  Looks like Slag's "High Plains Golf Trail" has yet another stop! ;)
   Did you get a chance to sample the fishing while you were there?

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: October 21, 2003, 11:30:15 PM by Brad Swanson »

George Pazin

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2003, 12:04:05 AM »
I know it's a personal bias of mine, but I flat out LOVE the look of those skyline greens.

Which one of those guys is the (in)famous Dan Kelly?

How firm did the course play? All that land and it's a tough walk...do you think easy walkability was sacrificed for "better" holes? Me, I'd prefer tees perched right on top of previous greens for a course that's probably going to receive scant play, but, hey, maybe that's just me.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Evan Fleisher

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2003, 12:16:14 AM »
Dick, Dan, etc...now I'm REALLY going to have to kill Randy for not flying us up there to meet up with you guys last weekend...arrrgghhh!

I just LOVE the rumpled look of the fairways and the stark color differences with the brown fescues and green fairways...looks like you guys had awesome weather to boot....arrrgghhh again!

How "accessible" were the balls that missed the fairways, were they easily findable and playable or did you have to stay "in the green areas" to have any chance?  It's also hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks as if the property has some significant elevation changes...can you comment on that aspect of the course...also were there a lot of level lies, or did the rumpled fairway effects make for difficult shot making?
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Tony_Chapman

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2003, 09:22:15 AM »
Heaven must be about halfway between here and Sand Hills - with a side trip to Wild Horse along the way.  ;D Dick, thanks for the trip. I am ready to go now.

John Foley

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2003, 09:30:27 AM »
Dick,

that's pretty impressive. Always love your write ups!

How from the Twin Cities and how from Wildhorse?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2003, 09:31:58 AM by john_foley »
Integrity in the moment of choice

JakaB

Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2003, 09:50:51 AM »
From just looking at pictures...this place looks to be 6/10ths the course Sand Hills is...

JakaB

Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2003, 09:50:58 AM »
To be fair it looks to only have 8/10ths the potential of the Sand Hills site...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2003, 09:52:50 AM by JakaB »

Dan Kelly

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2003, 10:19:05 AM »
The (in)famous Dan Kelly, checking in.

Nice pictures, Dick! They almost do the place justice. (Believe it or not, boys and girls, the water of the Missouri River there at Lake Oahe is even bluer in real life -- especially on a pair of perfect blue-sky days in the middle of October, with the temperature climbing into the 80s. The 80s! At a time of year when snow is possible! Idyllic stuff.)

I've been waiting for Dick to post his pictures -- and withholding my rapturous general and specific comments till then. Three holes to go! (I arrived at the first tee to discover that my camera's batteries were dead, and so were the spare pair in the camera case -- and the nearest town where they might have replacements ... its lights clearly visible at night, across the Great Plains ... was 32 miles away. Not worth the trip away from Brigadoon ... er, Sutton Bay.)

George -- I'm the bulky character with all the hair, hitting the tee shots on 3 and 5. The guy in the yellow baseball cap is my cousin Charlie. The guy in the yellow sweater-vest is our host, Mark Amundson -- the partner in charge at Sutton Bay -- who joined us both days for half a dozen holes, after finishing his work for the day, and good-naturedly endured our innumerable questions about everything from South Dakota's pheasants (6 million, on the eve of Saturday's Opener) to irrigation flow rates (you'll have to ask Dick).

The course is still growing in. Mark Amundson told us it's not so firm as they intend to get it. Quite a few of the holes are just begging for the bounced-in shot, especially to front pins -- and the approaches aren't yet to the firmness that will allow the ground game to flourish.

Brad -- No time to check out the fishing. Supposed to be quite the walleye spot, though. Salmon, too.

Evan -- There's always this weekend. If the forecast looks good: Go.

I would say that we found more than half of the balls that went into the long grass. The areas off the fairway (watch out for the rocks! they're everywhere!) range from wispy and very playable to impenetrably thick and unplayable. There weren't too many long forced carries, if you were playing the proper tees for your game, and the landing areas were all quite generous. You generally had to hit a BAD shot (or a RISKY shot that didn't quite come off) to lose a ball.

There's lots of elevation change at Sutton Bay -- beginning with the severely downhill No. 1 and ending with the severely downhill No. 18. There are several uphill holes, too -- though I'd have to say that SB is considerably more downhill than uphill, overall, meaning that it doesn't play quite so long as the yardage indicates.

The primary effect of the elevation change at Sutton Bay is that the whole property is tilted pretty strongly down toward Lake Oahe. The outward nine mostly tilt from right down to left; the inward nine mostly tilt from left down to right. It pays to pay attention to the lake when you putt: Putts you'd SWEAR were downhill, away from the lake, turn out to be uphill.

John Foley -- 6 hours, 40 minutes from Minneapolis, via 7/212/1804. Nice drive, if you like a drive like that.



"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2003, 10:23:27 AM »
Fantastic pics - thanks for doing this, Dick!

And Dan K. - sit down, you're not gonna want
to hear this - but not only do you and I act alike
a lot of the time, we sorta LOOK alike as well... same
bulkiness, same big hair, same Irish look... check
out the pics from the NM adventure if you can't
accept such damnation.   ;)

TH

Mike_Cirba

Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2003, 10:32:03 AM »
I swear that I looked at these pics last night and thought to myself, "how did Huckaby get to go on another golf trip??  His wife must be readying the arsenic by now!"  

You guys even set up to the ball the same!!   ;D

Dan Kelly

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2003, 10:43:11 AM »
Prof. Goodale said exactly the same thing about the Huckaby/Kelly resemblance when Jeff McDowell posted a picture of me playing out of a bunker at Jeff Brauer's The Quarry at Giants Ridge.

The difference between us, apparently, is that I have to really WORK at being genial!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2003, 10:45:04 AM »
I noticed the setup thing also.. this is pretty scary.... poor, poor Dan!

But hmmmm... seeing these pics makes me think of a HELL of a great thought for next year... along the lines of what tkchap said... dare to dream!

TH

Michael Dugger

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2003, 11:59:20 AM »
Mr. Richard Daley,

Bravo, fine pictures.  I second the sentiment of Mr. Shivas Irons, this thread has made my day.  

The course looks great.  
Bravo Graham Marsh.
Bravo Bill Kubly.

What a great site!  
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

RJ_Daley

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2003, 12:04:53 PM »
I am not buying the Kelly/Huckaby clan resemblance or any past cross breeding.  They don't look alike, they don't golf alike, they don't talk alike, they don't opine alike, they don't drink alike.  I'll leave it to you gents to figure out which of them is more Irish ;) But, if even TH thinks he looks like DK, then it is time to put down the damn glass man! :o :-X  

Barney, you are on the right track but perhaps a few 1/10s off.  But, we all knew that ;D

I'll finish my comments on Sutton Bay when Brad gets the other pictures up.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2003, 12:12:26 PM »
I am not buying the Kelly/Huckaby clan resemblance or any past cross breeding.  They don't look alike, they don't golf alike, they don't talk alike, they don't opine alike, they don't drink alike.  I'll leave it to you gents to figure out which of them is more Irish ;) But, if even TH thinks he looks like DK, then it is time to put down the damn glass man! :o :-X  

Thank you, Dick.  ;D

P.S. The part that really had me worried was Huckaby's saying we often act alike!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2003, 12:16:57 PM »
Dick, I trust your judgment implicitly.  I gotta tell ya though, in that pic, well... Mr. Kelly does look like me, or at least how I envision how I look!

But I am happy for him that we are indeed dissimilar in real life.   ;)

As for the rest, well.... I do look a lot like my own real brother, and no too people could be MORE dissimilar than we are in everything except looks.  He barely even plays golf at all, runs a company and is quite well off, plays beach volleyball for god's sake, and is a huge Notre Dame fan.

So it's the LOOKS here that are the issue....

In any case, sorry for the digression, my bad for the diversion from what should have been a discussion of this incredible-looking golf course.  Just as a few others, seeing it made my day as well.

TH

« Last Edit: October 22, 2003, 12:17:33 PM by Tom Huckaby »

RJ_Daley

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2003, 12:41:23 PM »
Tom, here is what impression I get from (as they say in my region of the country) 'da boat of youse'.

Huck looks and perhaps drinks like Ian Woosnam.

Dan looks and perhaps drinks like Roger Moore. ;)

You both play a fine game of golf.  Dan was made for the praire as he hits an impressive low screaming straight bullet, and Huck is a feel player with probably more shot making variety. Just an impartial and off handed tird party Irishman's appraisal... ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2003, 12:53:09 PM »
Dick --

Didn't you misspell "tird"?

Yr. editor (and Roger Moore look-alike  ::) :o),

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

JakaB

Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2003, 12:58:25 PM »
RJ,

Don't embarrass yourself,  Dan Kelly could not hold up Hucks jock strap in a golf match...or any other match for that matter. (Spelling Bee excluded...they are best done nude.)

On another topic...Does anybody from the Sutton Bay organization ever mention the holy words "Sand Hills" when you are on property or in their brochures.  Cause if they do they better be ready to reap the hypefest I can already confirm they are not prepared to handle.  Reminds me of Dan Quale and JFK.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2003, 12:59:14 PM by JakaB »

THuckaby2

Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2003, 01:03:57 PM »
RJD - I can most definitely live with that appraisal - in fact you flatter me - thanks, my friend.

Now what we need to do is finally get Dan K. and I in the same place at the same time, and see if the world implodes!

TH
« Last Edit: October 22, 2003, 01:04:27 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2003, 04:57:55 PM »
I also thought that Huckaby had gotten another dream trip in when I saw those pics of Dan.

How about the biggest difference between TH and DK, their GCA posts!    ;D

RJ_Daley

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2003, 11:25:21 PM »
To continue on in my bombastic review of Sutton Bay…

The sixteenth, 447 or 406 I believe has the widest fairway on the course.  Why did I miss it 2 out of 4 rounds?  Again the familiar slope of the fairway for the inward 9 is high left to down right with a central bunker cluster slightly down the lower right side.  A line of play taken low will yield a shorter more aerial uphill flight for the second shot over the most perilous line flirting with the guarding greenside bunkers protecting the right and back of the green.  The left high side yields the safest slightly longer route, but with the endless horizon skyline of the green falling into the Missouri River intimidating you to the max with a long iron or fairway metal in your hand.  A bounding shot landed somewhat short and left on line to the green is an appealing option.  The green is divided by a high spine ridge and a fall away back right of green has the toughest pin position.





The seventeenth, at 172 or 153 is a somewhat more confined shot than the 5th hole.  The difference is in the greensite being hemmed in by mounding hiding the right rear of the much smaller green.  But the perilous steep face leading up to the green and false front are even more scary that the 5th.  The background hill with back bunker is also more severe than the 5th.  There isn’t a great deal of wiggle room here. Hit the green or pay the price.



The eighteenth, 422 or 399 is a steep downhill tee shot.  It didn’t give me much trouble like even wider fairways did.  I don’t know why…do I look set up here?

I was never left with more than a 9 iron and most often a wedge of about 100-110 to the green.  A big hitter would have to think of fairway metal or iron off this tee, or the Matt Wards and Brad Swansons of the world may be thinking eagle with a second shot chip-in or putt!!!  One can run out of room up the left of the LZ.  However, the green is wide and moderately shallow with two distinct levels that want to runaway to the right.  The green is fronted on left by severe looking bunker.  But, no one in our group ever got into it.  I would say the closing hole is not the strongest, but offers the chance for a birdie you will feel good about and well earned if you make it.

Here is the man who really knows how to follow through…


My overall impression of Sutton Bay taking into context why it was developed, and what it has to offer is very high.  But, I really think a few things need to be addressed.  If a course of this magnitude of construction and design, set on this difficult of a site did not have a few bug-a-boos to work out, it would be a fairy tale.

This course begins with a big dream, and a very impressive man that promoted his dream for a long time.  Mark Amundson, the general manager, partner, and host is a fellow that pays attention to details.  I don’t know who all he partnered with, but of course two of them are Graham Marsh and his design firm, and Mr Bill Kubly of Landscapes Unlimited.  I have mentioned on another thread that Sutton Bay will not need to ride the coat tails of Sand Hills.  Because Sutton Bay is as remote and desolate looking as Sand Hills, and happens to have developed a lodge and cabin facility to cater to that exclusive and private discerning membership, one tends to want to say it copied Sand Hills.   They have elements in common due to these characteristics.  But, the golf course is significantly different in my view.  The terrain and soil are foremost in my mind as different.  The land is rocky at Sutton Bay, and the soil is not pure sand allowing to merely find a route, site a green, and turn over the prairie cover to plant turf.  The Sutton Bay property had to be extensively prepared.  The rocky terrain of fairway corridors and greensites had to be de-rocked.  A soil bed had to be graded and shaped to blend to original or designed to look like original contours to give it that Missouri Breaks rumpled look. Sutton Bay is indeed more rolling and deeper and steeper than Sand Hills.  They did the tie-ins so very well, I must say I was totally impressed by the grading out and blending and tying in the fairway and greensite contours to surrounds of native land.  But, there are tell tale signs of problems, perhaps as Micheal Kelly our most recent GCA contributor and 30 year veteran shaper has mentioned on the Black Mesa thread.  Some of the mounds that guard greensites are still not fully knit in with grown-in turf.  The exposed bare areas reveal a great deal of stone of 1-3inches mixed in the seedbed soil.  I surmise that the interior of those mounds have even greater size boulders and rocks with a cover of soil for planting.  I think that could be trouble down the road.  I can’t tell how deep the fairway soil cover is.  I don’t know what amount of rock and stone is under there.  But, I hope the cap soil layer is deep enough, and that seasonal freeze cycle movement don’t break up the irrigation lines and cause stones to rise.  

The glaring detraction from playability in a total experience sense is that Sutton Bay is not walkable for anyone but the very fittest .  While our host Mark has gone to great lengths to weed whack and trim paths and shortcuts from one green to next tee and often walks himself as an example that it isn’t so bad;  I’m sorry, I couldn’t buy into that idea of setting out afoot across that terrain.  Those paths are still way too long, many way too steep through ankle wrenching terrain, and I ain’t too comfortable about the rattlesnakes.  We only saw two, but if them there hills ain’t full of them, well…  

The other point I highly recommend is to clear the near rough of as much boulder and rock as possible.  I think the left side bite-off carry on the 6th hole to the left of the speed ramp is a perfect example.  Mark said that more stone clearing is in the future plans.  Although the fairways are very wide, one still can hook or slice ones ball to the tall grass prairie.  Once they achieve firm and fast conditions after grow in, the ball will more readily bound astray from firm fairways.  The irrigation spray drift, like all prairie environments, really lights up the vegetative growth.  There are areas just off the fairway where it is unplayable with thick undergrowth of blue grama, wheatgrass, needle-and-thread, prairie sandreed, switchgrassfescue, and thick stemmed junegrass, bluestem and many yucca plants to boot.  A native plant control and thinning regime will need to be developed whether it is burning or costly chemical application next to key landing areas, in my opinion.  If they can get the roughs to be wispy enough to allow one to frequently find a ball, and play it out without breaking a club or wrist with only a shot to ½ shot penalty, I think they will have a real winner!!!  I know some will say that those areas of unplayable rock/grass where balls are unfindable are no worse than water hazards.  But, this is not a water hazard course, it is a cousin to links and a prairie environment without a water feature on the entire course.  Dead as dead can be on a shot that strays into this stuff on some of the holes is not what this should be about, I don’t think.  

But, my playing companions, who don’t play nearly enough and yet sport 6-7 present handicaps, were well able to enjoy the course and didn’t stray off the fairways very often.  The course kept them and my less skilled self smiling hole after hole, despite the lost strays, mostly lost by me.  Sutton Bay’s routing and design features, offering great excitement and challenging yet doable shot making ought not disappoint anyone that I know who loves wide open prairie golf with plenty of humps and rolls and options galore.  

I’d recommend Sutton Bay to anyone who is looking for a real private membership at a sportsman’s retreat and who can afford the freight; one who wants someplace unique to hunt seriously, fish enthusiastically, and play golf with full throttle excitement, and yet retreat to a comfortable lodge environment where the service, quality of food, and furnishings are top of the line.  You would need serious medication if you couldn’t get your jolly meter registering in the “too much fun for one man to have” zone while enjoying Sutton Bay.  I’d say it is worth a trip across the country to experience this, and one should do it soon - as long as it is semi open to the public with a letter to Mark, or beg an invitation from a member when she goes fully private.



As for me, I’ll just keep swinging away aimlessly out on the prairie…



end
full stop
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tyler Kearns

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2003, 12:51:33 AM »
RJ,
   Well, I'm glad to see you enjoyed your weekend at Sutton Bay, it was definitely the highlight of my golf year (if the weather had been better at Capilano it would be a much harder decision). The comments you made about the rocky and very wild areas that line the fairways are right on cue! 1/2 shot penalties are much more in line on a site like this, were the wind can frequently howl, and can render some very wide playing corridors much smaller. Mark mentioned that an unusally wet spring and early summer enabled the prairie vegetation to thrive, and hopes to eradicate the rock problem on an on-going basis.
     The only real design decision that I question, is the opening tee shot. I felt it lacked sufficient definition to offer a sense of depth perception. On a site of this scale, and facing a severe elevation change right off the bat, it was very difficult to gauge the actual landing area for the shot. My sole cue was to infer that the mound was used to define the landing area, calling for the player to challenge the left hand portion of the fairway to avoid being blind for the second. And although the strategy worked, the mound was much closer than anticipated. Second time around, I hit a long iron rather than driver (Rattlesnake tees). I think a fairway bunker set into the left hand side of the mound would help players judge the distance better, and make them feel a little more comfortable on the first tee. I certainly did learn my lesson, but still feel the start is far from ideal. Any similar thoughts?
    I hope to get some pics to Brad, and can add a few different angles to your set. Well done. I'll second your recommendation of a venture halfway across the continent to visit Sutton Bay.

Tyler Kearns
P.S. Didn't see any rattlesnakes, but got one great scare while looking for a straw ball. Bumped into a dormant yucca plant, sending the little pods enclosed atop its tall stem rattling about...causing my heart to stop momentarily! Good thing I had my Vokey wedge at the ready.  

Dan Kelly

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Re:Pictures and comments of Sutton Bay.
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2003, 01:41:03 AM »
That's Dick the Italian Irishman you see in the last picture, on the wonderful par-3 9th hole at the far end of the Sutton Bay land. (He appears to have pulled it a bit -- possibly distracted by thoughts of how much I look like Roger Moore ... though I'm quite sure Dick must have meant Michael Moore!  ???)

Mr. Daley is playing to a green that bedeviled us all weekend. None of us came close to tap-in range with our first putts from the lower-left level to the upper-middle-right hole the first day. The second day, Charlie K. had a putt from just above the ridge down to a pin at lower left. I thought it would break hard to the left; I could see that he was aiming several feet to the left, expecting a big right turn. As it turned out, we were both dead wrong: His putt stayed way left; my practice putt from that spot stayed way right. The putt, as a third attempt showed, was in fact nearly straight. Cool.

It's the greens at Sutton Bay that I particularly love. They're great to look at (especially those skyline greens), they're set at every angle to the line of approach, and they're FULL of movement -- most of it owing not to particularly dramatic undulations, but to tilts and subtle undulations in greens set on a basically side-hill site. A player can be facing sweeping-curvy putts all day long at Sutton Bay -- some of which are harder than they look because (as I mentioned earlier) it can be hard to tell if one is putting uphill or downhill. (I was pleased that Mark Amundson, who has as much local knowledge as anyone, misread by about 10 feet a putt across the magnificent fallaway-to-the-right 16th green during our afternoon round Saturday -- the same putt I had misread by about 10 feet, in the same direction, during the Saturday-morning round.)

Most of the greens are large; some of them (No. 4 and No. 8, both three-shot par-5s for all but the longest of the long, stand out) are ENORMOUS, and a player could face a putt of 150 feet or more. I wish one of the really huge ones were on a driveable par-4, a very long par-4, or a short par-5, where good players might be likely to regularly face those gargantuan putts, rather than on par-5s to which better players will be hitting mostly short irons and rarely missing by enough to make those putts happen. But that's a minor quibble, at best. (In fairness, another of the bigger greens is on the shortish par-5 15th, where there will be some thrilling sweeper putts from front left up to back right -- and even more thrilling putts down the hill in the opposite direction.)

Green after green after green, Sutton Bay has an abundance of hole locations that will demand an abundant variety of approach shots and will generate an abundant variety of chips and pitches and putts -- some of which, when they've finished rolling, will leave you shaking your head in puzzled amazement (a good thing, the way I look at golf).

My assessment: If you enjoy the short game and hit the ball reasonably straight, you'll love Sutton Bay. The course will change dramatically from round to round, depending on the hole locations and the winds.

As for improving Sutton Bay, here's the gist of what I've told Mark Amundson, who invited feedback (and persuaded me that he meant it):

I wish it were an easier walk, and I hope that caddies are part of the plan (even "cart caddies," who could drive the bags around the course while players walk unencumbered).

I hope they'll get the approaches fast and firm -- because quite a few of the greens are begging for ground-game action.
(He told us that firm-and-fast is the plan.)

I wish the first tee shot weren't a forced carry -- a straight ball lost being an unhappy fate for one's first shot of the day -- and that the whole serpentine first hole, which snakes down the hill toward Lake Oahe, were a little less claustrophic-feeling (an odd feeling in that setting, and an unfortunate feeling on the first hole of the day). As Mark told us and Dick noted, Graham Marsh is already planning to open up the left-hand driving zone. (No matter how much he opens it up, it'll be a tough par -- because there are no easy chips or putts down on that first green.)

I wish the par-5 fourth hole offered the option of an approach from  the left -- so that one could hit a running shot into the huge, terrific fallaway green ... 90 percent of which is now accessible only with a high shot over the front bunker grouping or with a wicked slice.

I wish the eighth hole's left fairway continued all the way up to and around the central hazard -- offering a riskier line that would reward the successful risk-taker with a better view of the green hidden behind the hill.

I also told Mark Amundsen that during our second round the first day, I circled the hole numbers of the holes I particularly liked just the way they are -- and ended up with, I think, 13 circled numbers.

All in all, it's a wonderful place. It deserves to be a big success. I'm not qualified to either rank or rate the golf course, not having played enough of the "competition," so I'll just say this: I would never get tired of visiting Sutton Bay or playing the golf course. The setting is, as the kids say, AWESOME. The holes are challenging and fun, without ever being nasty -- unless you badly miss a shot. The lodge is classy. The lodgings are  comfortable (the beds: comforterable). The food was excellent (particularly the barbecued buffalo sandwiches at Swampy's Shack, the thirdway/twothirdsway house). The beer was cold. The staff was friendly and attentive. The par-3 course, which we've neglected to mention, looked fun -- albeit considerably more penal than the golf course proper. (We played only one hole of it, a nifty 145-yarder across a deep ravine, as a sudden-death tie-breaker. I'm much too modest to mention who won the playoff by sticking an 8-iron about a foot and a half from the cute little 5-foot flagstick -- likely that player's best shot of the weekend.)

Warm thoughts of Sutton Bay will be with me through the long, cold winter.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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