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DMoriarty

1. I finally opened the Golf ratings and noticed that 5 of Tom Doak's 31 Gourmet's Choices made the most "overrated" courses in the world list, at least according to his brethren architects.  If we assume that Tom Doak also likes Pacific Dunes, then his favorites take up over 1/2 of the "overrated" list.

2.  Eight (8) of the "overrated" courses were built pre-1940.  The three built after 1940 were Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, and Casa de Campo.  

3.  Golf "broke out" the architects' ratings, but then compared them to the overall Top 100 list.  Would not it have been more interesting to compare the architects' ratings to the non-architects' ratings.   For example, where do the non-architects rate Sand Hills?  Pacific Dunes?  Shadow Creek?

4.  Then, wouldn't it be even more interesting to see which courses were "overrated" and "underrated" by the architects.  In other words, instead of using the architects as our base line, why not use the non-architects.  Which courses would drop of the list if the architects' votes did not count?  Would Peachtree, Shadow Creek, Spyglass Hill, Congressional, etc. even have made the list?

5.  Am I misreading this, or did the architects really vote Torrey Pines 57th in the World?  Just outside the top 50 in the world!?!?  If so, Rees Jones must have done one heck of a job.  


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2003, 08:16:15 AM »
David:

I don't think you are misreading Golf magazine and the architects rating Torrey Pines at #57 in the world, well ahead of Pacific Dunes at #76.

Now, that's what I call bad taste!

Tim Weiman

RJ_Daley

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Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2003, 09:44:37 AM »
Why should we be surprised at these results?  Let's face it, Tom Doak at an early age set himself up as a firebrand, maverick, anti-establishment (you pick your own characterization words) and wrote a book that exposed the soft underbelly of the establishment.  Tom is a brilliant fellow and was a young man on a mission.  He has now made his bones and put his money where his mouth was and has produced some exciting new architecture.  The establishment isn't going to forget his slings and arrows.  Tom is a big boy and his talented team can stand in there and compete, despite the slights and scorns of the pouting establishment.  This is no different than other artists in various other mediums throughout history.  Some young upstart with a few new ideas comes along and pisses off the establishment, and the stodgy old guard, guild, or sindacate close ranks to slight their critic.  

The Torrey Pines thing is certain evidence of this guild of old establishment guys rallying behind one of their own (Rees and his latest work there) and freezing out Doak.  The thing is, the old guild as usual don't give the public enough credit for being smart enough to see through their hatchet job... but we are! ;D ;) :o 8)

And, don't think that I am a Doakaphile.   I look forward to seeing his Texas Tech, and I will be eyes wide open critical, which I don't think Tom would want anything less... (not that my review is anything more than my own darn opinion) ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2003, 09:53:30 AM »
Torrey Pines South at whatever is too high. I have 1 to whatever covered in the UK if being on the Ocean is all one needs to be there. There are plenty, just pick anyone of them and it is a better course than Torrey South. Oh I am sorry, the course must have been rehabed by one of the USGA fair haired boys and be a future US Open course. Thats different. Geeez maybe Sand Pines is next. Upps no can do, not enough 5 star hotels nearby to get an event. A par three course built by Rees adjacient to Tavern on the Green would have made it if the deal had worked out. Yes, that takes the cake and really makes the list so much bad reading.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2003, 09:56:39 AM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Gene Greco

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Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2003, 10:05:02 AM »
D. Moriarity:

  The article also described these architects as the true experts. Are they? Or are some a "little" more self serving than need be.

Why are these people allowed to vote on courses which they have doctored a bit but have not been the ones responsible for the original design intent?

Answer: Because tacking on your name after Tillie's is an easy way to climb the ladder.

Its kinda like the Michael Bolton way of doing things - create nothing new and sing other artists works and YOU become the artist.

Why is it that so many of the people I consider true experts, including many heavy hitters on this website, consider Sand Hills to be the greatest course in the world?

Why is it that nearly every person walks off this course looking like they've had the BEST SEX they've ever had?

If it isn't #1 it sure is close. It surely can't be considered overrated at #11 in the world but on the other hand I've played 26 of the top 30 in the world and can surmise ALL thirty are not superior!
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2003, 11:18:55 AM »
RJ Daley:

I am curious about the identity of this establishment.  In the context of Rees, is it a loose knit group based in the northeast, is it a professional organization, is it a group of people within a certain age range?  How exactly do you define this establishment?  

Also, I met Tom at Sandhills, and he wasn't wearing a belt, the pants looked worn, and his headcovers were ratty, so yes I would say he has bad taste.  However, I did see Stonewall II and have met some of his accomplises and in that regard he has extremely good taste.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2003, 11:19:31 AM »
Gene, someone else recently observed on one of these threads, that perhaps the big earthmover, big landscape designer-framers feel that sites such as Pac Dunes and Sand Hills are discounted because they only demonstrate the archie's ability to route and construct minimally upon the land as it exists.  There on such sites, their engineering and design abilities aren't fully identified.  Perhaps they have a mindset that unless the project calls for detailed engineering of drainage, irrigation schemes, grassing and landscape themes, on a blank slate or problem site, that the archies talent isn't exposed.  From what it seems the Friar's Head site has demonstrated of Coore and Crenshaw (not all that remarkable of terrain like real links-dunesland) and their work at Chechessee, Hidden Creek, and Talking Stick, they have shown that they can do their magic on relatively blank slates as well, and without the bombastic earth moving.  As for Doak, I am waiting to see how the Texas Tech course is evaluted.  He needs some more work on blank slates, similar to his High Pointe and Apache to drive his message and style home.  TT will equal most of the big earthmoving projects, and if that becomes a highly regarded course, then I think they have to give him his due as one that can do it in all types of conditions.  C&C have already made their points in that regard, and deserve to be thought of as highly skilled on both naturally conducive sites, and blank slates.  

And, sometimes I think we must also make a concession to the lead archie's TEAM, and their tastes and styles.  Te Nicklaus, Fazio, Jones teams have a sort of signature approach and design philosophy that somewhat trademarks them.  I think it is very interesting that some cross pollination has taken place in the Coore Crenshaw-Renaissance teams.  Sure they follow their leaders ideals.  But, there are some strong headed and talanted people on those teams who I think have their fingerprints on the final product and it shows.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2003, 11:21:13 AM »
KBM, we posted at same time.  If my latest doesn't answer it, pull my chain again... ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt_Ward

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2003, 12:10:21 PM »
David M:

Let me just say this -- I concur with the thoughts that question the positioning of Torrey Pines / South being rated that high.

I can't explain it and I have been accused by some as being  pro-Rees person (hogwash I might add).

Pac Dunes is a superb design and for TP to be ahead of it is a stunning declaration of not knowing your ass from your elbow IMHO.

Michael Dugger

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Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2003, 12:57:35 PM »
Dick,

Once again, a damn fine post.  Most thoughtful and well spoken poster on gca.com, you've got my vote!!!

Kelly Blake Moran.....I don't want to speak for Dick Daley but I think you know the answer to your own question.  The "establishment" is a tremendously vague term, however if the shoe fits wear it.  

"Establishment" includes those with the Augusta Nat'l syndrome.  It includes those who prefer RTJones era of long and tough over something like a Swinley Forest.  It's anyone who propogates the notion that golf is a leisure activity for those who fit many of the stereotypical characters depicted in Caddyshack, especially Judge Snails.

"Establishment" does not find rough edges to be charming and certainly doesn't want to have to walk when you can take a cart.  They are the people who have shaped the idea of what a "Championship" course ought to be made of.  They care about selling housing lots and affix the "signature" design tag to help accomplish this.

They are everywhere.

I could go on and on    
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2003, 01:12:05 PM »
Mike, thanks for the ego boast.  However, you may have now sealed my fate with such an overstated endorsement, and I will not get to play that round with Pat at The Bridge or Atlantic anytime soon... ;D ;) 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2003, 01:43:06 PM »
The egos and ways of the "establishment" are much more subtle than that of any great courses. The need to go along to get along is as self serving and ruinous as any cancer. Isn't that why the majority is mostly wrong?

Just imagine when the C&C's and Doak's become the establishment and the new blood that will dissent from that...

Should be spectacular.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2003, 09:00:55 PM »
RJ:  I wish I had some more "blank slates" like Friars Head to work on.  Texas Tech definitely doesn't compare to that.  Before you play the course, go out to the left (east) of the practice range and get a good look at what we had to work with.  Then judge away!

Kelly:  Just because I'm poorly dressed (or sometimes would prefer not to look the part of a golf course architect) doesn't mean I have bad taste.  You should know that.

As for the "establishment," I'm not sure where I stand.  I'm on a first-name basis with a fair percentage of the most important people in golf (or at least those not named Hootie), some of them for twenty years now.

Yes, I did once write a critical book on golf courses, and some people are still offended by it.  Can't take that back now, even if I wanted to.  But you can't label me as someone who won't give credit to modern golf courses if they're good enough ... I'm disagreeing with my peers in FAVOR of Sand Hills and Casa de Campo, for God's sake.  I'll stand by that, too.


Gene Greco

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Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2003, 10:50:53 PM »
RJ:

I used to live in Lubbock and can tell you the topograghy there makes the land at Talking Stick look like Royal Melbourne. It is featureless in the purest sense so Tom will have to reach into the darkest depths of creativity in order to produce something worthwhile.

Tom:

I believe 50% (?) of the land used at Friars by Coore was flat farmland yet two of my favorite holes on the course, 5 and 7, were created on this part of the property. However, you are correct in that the land in total doesn't resemble Lubbock in the least.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Texas_Three_Putt

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2003, 09:44:34 AM »
Here's a picture of the land in Lubbock Tom got to work with.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2003, 10:00:37 AM by Texas_Three_Putt »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2003, 11:07:50 AM »
Thanks for the photo.  I'd love to do a "before and after" postcard, except for all the damn cart paths we had to put in.

Gene:  If the seventh hole at Friar's Head started out flat, then Bill Coore sure fooled me.  I think you've fooled yourself on that one.  

And I'd take sand over Lubbock soils any day.  Few of you have any idea how much easier sand makes golf course shaping and construction ... I've been lucky to work with it several times, and it's huge.

ForkaB

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2003, 11:13:09 AM »
Tom Doak gets all the breaks!

First Keiser and Pacific Dunes and now a seemingly flat piece of land that is obviously impregnated with crop circles and god knows what other forms of alien intelligence.......

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2003, 11:23:06 AM »
Tom Doak

Which of your 31 gourmet choices do you not have in your world own world top 100?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2003, 11:40:03 AM »
RJDaley,

Since MDugger's endorsement post was unsolicited, you still have an open invite to play with me.

I haven't played The Bridge yet, but have recently heard some positive comments about it from people who had just played it.

Kelly Blake Moran,

I hope MDugger's explanation was clear, concise, accurate and educational with respect to who the "establishment" are.

I know that it was revealing and reinforced my understandings   ;D

DMoriarty,

I find it comical that many on this site request that the site interview different architects, yet, when those architects aren't in agreement with some on this site, their opinions are dismissed, or claimed to be part of some huge, well organized conspiracy.

If other architects render their opinions, as some request, then shouldn't those opinions be respected ??  ;D


Jim_Michaels

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2003, 11:43:24 AM »
Let's start with the abssolutely most important point: Great players who become architects are not necessarily "experts" at all. They MIGHT be, but most are not. I would put Tom Paul or Pat Mucci or Ran Morrisett's experience and knowledge up against the name brand ex-players any time.

Those who either attend architectural training or work their way up under established archies do probably have some incremental credibility as panelists.

And finally, why in heck do these archies get to vote on courses they refurbish? Without Rees' vote, I bet TP isn't top 100!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2003, 11:53:03 AM »
Paul,

Remember that the Gourmet's Choice is written to include 30 different architects (plus mother Nature, for the Old Course at St. Andrews).  It's intended to promote variety, not to list my top 31, if anyone would even try to be that exacting.

I didn't put Commonwealth or Desert Highlands or Stonewall in my top 100 in the world this time around.  (Couldn't vote on Stonewall, but wouldn't have if I could.)  Nor The Addington or St. Enodoc or Westward Ho, all of which I loved, but all of which I've played only once and twenty years ago to boot.  As cool as they are, I just don't know them well enough, and I'm suspicious whether scratch players would find them thrilling or just simple.

Plus it's a good reason to go back to them someday.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2003, 11:56:28 AM »
Oh, I don't think I voted for The Creek in the top 100 in the world either, though I really like it a lot.

I did vote for Lancaster, North Berwick, Rye, and St. George's Hill, which must be the most underrated courses in the world because they still aren't on GOLF's list.

Jim_Michaels

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2003, 11:56:57 AM »
Tom,

Would you have any qualms about voting on Yeaman's Hall?

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2003, 02:40:19 PM »
I do not think you guys are as anti-establishment as you think.  Or to say it another way I think whatever establishment there is it is small, although there impact may be tremendous in some ways.  The people on this site who think they are antiestablishment probably represnet the majority.  But in any regard how do you measure that and who wants to?  The anti establishement represented by Doak Hanse and Coore, as some have suggested,  have strong ties to the establishment whose definition is somewhat clear but has been danced around.  Tom mentions his relationship with the majority of the most important people in golf, many of whom might qualify for the establishment.  Who knows, maybe his manmade creation at Lubbock might be the "Newport Folk Festival" for him in some eyes.  Hanse and Coore belong to the ASGCA.  I mean to say that GCA may be more establishment than you think, and there may be fewer firm lines between those whom you consider a part of the establishment and those you consider a part of the anti.  And in the end it may not mean a whole hell of a lot except for the work being produced, and whether that work seems to be influenced by others ideas whom would qulify as establishment.

Tom, you seem much more sensitive about your clothes than your courses.  I just used those commmets as a foil for my sincere compliment at the end.  Regardless, your pants did look like something from Goodwill, and the headcovers appeared to have been chewed on by a dog.  But, heck I am sitting here right know in my office tyoing this in a smelly Hawk Pointe tee shirt, blue jean shorts and sandals, so I don't know why I even brought it up.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2003, 04:38:25 PM »
Paul,

Remember that the Gourmet's Choice is written to include 30 different architects (plus mother Nature, for the Old Course at St. Andrews).  It's intended to promote variety, not to list my top 31, if anyone would even try to be that exacting.

I didn't put Commonwealth or Desert Highlands or Stonewall in my top 100 in the world this time around.  (Couldn't vote on Stonewall, but wouldn't have if I could.)  Nor The Addington or St. Enodoc or Westward Ho, all of which I loved, but all of which I've played only once and twenty years ago to boot.  As cool as they are, I just don't know them well enough, and I'm suspicious whether scratch players would find them thrilling or just simple.

Plus it's a good reason to go back to them someday.

Tom

Thanks, yes I understood that the 31 listed aren't your Top 31.  Good job too, much more interesting to have the architect constraint.

By the way.  Which architect did you most want to include but couldn't fit in?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

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