[Darren_Kilfara]

Noel's topic about "unfairness" in Golden Age designs and a realization that dawned upon me this evening at Machrihanish have made me curious about this subject. First, this evening's realization: I was playing the 14th hole at Machrihanish and hit a hard draw off the tee that skipped to the left of the two deep swales in the middle of the fairway and found the narrow sliver of relatively flat ground to the left of them, about 135 from the front edge of the green. It occurred to me that the sliver is so narrow as to be no kind of target at all - if you're really keen to find a flattish lie in the fairway, you have to be either really lucky (to dodge the swales on either side) or lay back at least 190-195 yards from the front of the green (and even then likely find some sort of dodgy stance - it's not really an intelligent strategic option). So, almost 100% of the time, if you hit the fairway, your stance is likely in the lap of the gods.

Now, take another hypothetical hole with the same green complex and fairway outline as the 14th at Machrihanish, but give it a dead-level fairway with no internal movement (until the swale just before the green, anyway). Most of us at GolfClubAtlas would probably deem the hypothetical hole to be much less interesting than the real hole, but then Noel's scratch buddies at Alpine - and many more good and bad players besides - would probably prefer the flat fairway, primarily for reasons of fairness. The low handicappers would probably also enjoy a fairway with one flat side and one undulated side, insofar as there's actually a strategic concept at work (find the flat part to get the easier approach shot).

Now, while I can find no reason to agree with Noel's foes at Alpine about the greens there, I might be persuaded to agree with them on the fairways issue (certainly from a devil's advocate position, which I'm taking at the moment). There are good places and bad places to miss the green at almost all roly-poly green complexes, and I really enjoy quirk around the greens. However, while I still enjoy quirk in the fairways, you are much less likely to find good and bad places to miss your average fairway - which makes fairways like the one on the 14th at Machrihanish much more contentious. Would anyone care to try and set me "straight" on this issue?

Cheers,
Darren

[James Edwards]

Darren,

I won't try to set you straight, because your explanation and description is sound.

I don't see any reason why the 14th at your place can't remain how it is.

All great courses have side slopes and elevation changes...  and in that respects all great golfers practice shots off sloping lies.  If, and a big if, you could always find a flat area because the architect designed such areas in the name of strategy, it would be a real loss to architecture IMO and a hell of a lot of earth moving on a hilly site.

There are times when you have to choke down or grab the end - thats golf..  Bravo 14th at Macrihanish.

James  

p.s.  looking forward to our game up there.

[peter_p]

Darren,
    That doesn't sound cricket. Sounds like the flat to the left of the swale rewards a certain type of shot. I never saw it when we played. Will this change how you play the hole in the future.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Darren,
    That doesn't sound cricket. Sounds like the flat to the left of the swale rewards a certain type of shot. I never saw it when we played. Will this change how you play the hole in the future.

Peter, I think you've missed my point - the area between the left edge of the fairway and the left edge of the central swale is about four yards wide. There is no flat ground at which to aim.

Cheers,
Darren

[Tom_Doak]

Darren:

I'll be Devil's advocate now.

Why would you want to set up the course so the thinking player can avoid all the wrinkles God provided, and pretend he's on a practice tee?

There's nothing wrong with strategy, just as long as it isn't meant to replace the nature.

[Marty Bonnar]

Darren,
Thanks for the heads-up. I'll be sure and go right on 14 when I swing by Machrihanish this sunday!! (Boy, am I excited about it - PS what's Dunaverty like?? ((playing there on Sat)). PPS Play well in the Jimmy Kerr Memorial!!

Cheers
FBD.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Tom, strategy comes in all different shapes in sizes, right? It does seem to me that the theory of a fairway with a flat side and a sloped side is sound (and could be strategic, given the right green complex set of surrounding hazards and/or other complicating factors), even if I can't think of one in real life.

FBD, you won't find much flat ground on the right side of #14 at Machrihanish, either. That's my point - there's no good place to aim for. Your stance in the fairway is entirely down to luck, unless you're Moe Norman or something.

(Dunaverty is a very short course - par 66, with a lot of par 3.5s masquerading as 4s - but is a heck of a lot of fun. Wonderful quirk, great views, and a great set of par 3s apart from #2...I'd guess from Doak's rating of 2 in his book that he didn't meander out past the first three or four holes to the fun terrain thereafter. And I'm off early in the Jimmy Kerr on Saturday, trying to avoid as much of the wind as I can - my swing has been suffering of late...)

Cheers,
Darren

[Jeff_Brauer]

In general principle, I'll agree with Darren's last post here.....

Tripp Davis had a totally crumpled and rumpled fairway on his Tribute Course here in Dallas, which I liked, but I can't recall which hole he was "tributing" right now.  

We debate in the office whether a short par four where the nature of the hole is to hit a tee shot, knowing that the ground will force you to hit some type of (fun?) wedge from an uneven lie is a good hole, or if it is devoid of strategy.  

Or, is it better to allow the player, with the proper shot to find one level spot, even if the architect has to flatten out some uneven topography to allow it.  If strategy is playing a certain shot or to a certain area to gain advantage, I conclude that having at least some portion of the fairway level provides a stronger hole than having it all rumpled so there is no advantage to hitting a tee shot anyplace.

[A_Clay_Man]

Look at one of the greatest par 4's on the planet, the ninth at Pebble Beach. It has no real flat spots but certainly the player would like to be on the least undulating part. In this case, it's the leftside of the fairway past the apex of the hill. The right side slopes steeply while the left is more gentle and actually has a few subtle steps. When hitting a long iron into this hole, it is very difficult to do so with a downhill lie. But, in principle, I disagree with Darren(surprise) in that I get much more satisfaction at creating shots from other than flat. Probably because missing from flat is much more frustrating. Oddly enough the shots from a "doggie stance" rarely miss by much because we foresee the natural tendancies of the ball to go left or right. This hypothesis of Darren's seems like it could of been TF's college thesis for creating playable courses for all.  

There is something special about a course where if you do find a flat spot, it's only possible infrequently.

[CHrisB]

It does seem to me that the theory of a fairway with a flat side and a sloped side is sound (and could be strategic, given the right green complex set of surrounding hazards and/or other complicating factors), even if I can't think of one in real life.

Darren,
The 14th at Pasatiempo might be a good example of what you're talking about. The right side of the fairway is flat but the approach is made difficult because of the green angle and the front right bunker. The left side of the fairway falls into a deep swale/valley where the lie and stance will be unpredictable, and the approach is semi-blind, but the approach is more open, looking more or less straight down the green. It's up to you to choose which route and which challenges to take.

Here's a diagram of the hole. The valley (not shown in the diagram) runs down the left side of the fairway.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Adam, remember - I'm mostly playing devil's advocate. No need to get personal...in general I prefer uneven to flat, even when it's like the 14th at Machrihanish. But ChrisB has the right idea, I think, in bringing up the 14th at Pasatiempo. 100% uneven and 0% strategic is inferior to 50%uneven and 100% strategic, isn't it?

Cheers,
Darren

[A_Clay_Man]

Darren- I meant not to be personal, I did however mean to imply that your advocacy position comes close to a slippery slope where the end result is flat flat and more flat. I also think I understand your hypothesis a little better now w/ chris' example, but he never really mentions flat, does he? I do see a point in challenging any player with a riskier shot, to achieve the rewards of a desired lie. Here at my home course there is plenty of movement on every fairway and on certain shots it is beneficial to be in a certain location to get at certain pins even in the rough on an upslope is IMO where I want to be on very specific shots. What's awesome about it is that those up slopes are awefully close to downslopes, from which the task at hand is considerably more difficult..

[James Edwards]

In my opinion, as I touched on earlier, I much prefer to play a shot off the fairway (short grass) regardless of subtle slopes than playing out of the rough / thick grass.  Just hitting the fairway is a fine achievement for any standard of player.

Some of the best players in the world, and indeed local players at my club off 21 (like my father) enjoy shot making, and it's half the reason they play golf at good courses.  

James

[Tom_Doak]

Darren:  Nothing wrong with your idea for a hole; I like holes like that.  I suspect Machrihanish already has a few of them, although I don't remember all the fairway undulations.

I'm just agreeing with James, that I think it's silly to feel the need to strategize EVERY hole on a course, so that a strategic player can "play around" all the shotmaking.

In tennis, your opponent won't let you play around your backhand ... in golf, it's up to the architect to make you work a little bit.  If Nature says there aren't going to be any even lies on a particular fairway, I think that's okay.

The 16th hole at Pacific Dunes has been criticized by a few players just for this line of reasoning -- there aren't any flat spots, so some players can't figure out what I want them to do.  I just want them to get it in the hole whatever it takes!

[Darren_Kilfara]

Tom, the funny thing is that, of course, you're right about Machrihanish having holes like that. Upon further reflection (i.e. having played there this afternoon), the 12th fairway strongly favors a drive up the left hand side for the long hitters, to find a semi-plateau and avoid a steep dip on the right. And indeed, the right side of the 14th fairway isn't that bad either, at least until you hit it 260 from the box tees or 290 from the medal tees.

Your general point is quite interesting, especially when taken to its logical extreme. Do we overanalyze golf holes on this website too often? Some holes - like the 16th at Pacific Dunes, just "are", and are great independent of strategy or even rational thought. Fair comment?

Cheers,
Darren

[James Edwards]

Absolutely Darren.  Fair comment.

With 16 at PD in mind, hitting the fairway is the primary objective and then using your ability as a golfer to then execute the next is the second objective.  Nothing in architecture sais every fairway has to be flat for a good drive?  That would mean that all 300+ has to be flat because there are different standards of player who hit it different distances.. and we would have to be fair for all of them..

Golf is a journey, an experience...  Golf is visualisation, using your imagination, using your skill.  

When you land in a divot on a fairway, members shout, how unlucky, I've hit it down the middle and I get this!  Most probably a fair comment, but that is golf..  sloping fairways are part of golf..  undulating greens are part of golf.  Variety is most importantly part of golf.  

We, as architects and artists sometimes show a flavour which people don't like, but many people love.  Thats architecture.

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