[Tommy_Naccarato]

Is there anyone here that acutally believes that the Game's epicenter is in America?

I sorta get it. I mean NGLA, come on!

But why dosn't the National Golf Foundation actually quiz American's if they know what the National Golf Links of America actually is? Most barely know Shinnecock! The Sandhills? Well, lets face it, it's unheard of in the average American mindstream. I had a family friend that is a golfer once ask me why I wanted to go golfing in Philadelphia.

I replied, "Merion & Pine Valley--The Philadelphia School!" they responded, "which school did you go to?"

I would be willing to bet everything I hold dear that if you asked a golfer here in Orange County where NGLA or Merion or Pine Valley was or what it was, they wouldn't have the slightest clue. Yet, if you asked them how to get to Pelican Hill they could accurately describe to you how to get to the first restrooms, as well as identify this Pelican Hill Super Dune that doesn't even exist.

What do you think of the Average American Golfer, and please describe him!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tommy,
Just a personal observation. When I tell people that our course was built by Seth Raynor, with a redo of a couple holes by Charles Banks, the ratio of blank expressions to those of acknowledgement is about 2 to 1. That's not too bad.

Maybe it's just a California thing.  
Nearly everyone on the east coast who calls themselves a golfer knows of PB, CP, Riviera, etc.. This is probably due to the high profile of theses places, unlike the low profiles of NGLA, Merion, PV, etc..

I don't think there really is an AAG but if there is he/she is not such a lamebrain as some people think. When new golfers step off our course and onto the golf shack's porch they invariably offer their observations. Some positive ones are "The greens have so many rolls on them", "Aren't there any flat lies out there", "The terrain is so different", etc..    Add to those the ones who say "All that's missing is the windmill" and baby, we got 'em thinking, or I should say that Seth got 'em thinking.
We are one of the least recognized, smallest Raynor layouts but we are public. I contend that given the access to some of the better courses in the USA the mythical AAG becomes a more intent golfer.

[Gary_Smith]

When has the average person, whether he be American or practically any other nationality, truly "gotten it" about practically anything, whether it be truly great golf courses, music, art, novels, or whatever??

I would be worried if the average guy out there did "get it."

I think sometimes some of you guys should let it go about the average golfer not "getting it" about what makes for a truly great golf course.

They may just want to go out there, hit some balls with their  buddies, and let some steam off and have some fun. That may just be all they want out of golf. Their passions may be elsewhere. Nothing wrong with that.

Different strokes for different folks.

   

[Dan Kelly]

Bravo, Gary Smith.

[Dunlop_White]

Tommy,

My Seminole Golf Club cap has triggered the inquiry of whether I attended Florida State University...... several times......and from accomplished golfers.

[ForkaB]

Dunlop

I can see a positive flip side to your experience.  Those of us who haven't had a chance to play Seminole can now just go to Tallahassee and get our FSU "Seminole" bubba hats and then pretend that we are posh when we play with our GCA friends......

[TEPaul]

TommyN:

Horace Greeley once said;

"Go west young man."

However, since you've been implying it I have to tell you;

"Come back where it all began!"

[Jeff Fortson]

I think the "average golfer" who wants to know nothing about the game other than to drink as many beers as he can before the halfway house is fine for an obscure muni course.  Take that guy and put him on NGLA or Cypress and I would consider it a wasted opportunity for someone else who appreciates the game, its architecture, and history who has never played it.

I am certainly not saying that to play a great course you should have to pass some sort of etiquette or history test.  I am simply saying that you DEFINITELY will NOT find "that" guy in my foursome.

Matter of fact, I will go as far as to say that in the PGA training program for club professionals that I am going through, there should be more emphasis on history and rules than cart fleet management and interpersonal skills.  Unfortunately, the PGA tries to teach you how to bend over and take one in the ass financially from management companies or memberships, all while keeping a smile on your face for the customer.

People that walk through life never trying to truly understand or dive into a passion disgust me.  How could someone settle for the Backstreet Boys, You Got Mail, Martha Stewart, Oprah, and Pelican Hills?  If you are that easy for the media to mold then you are a sad creature.

People need more passion.  Golfers need more passion.  Without it our sport will turn into THE GAP or OLD NAVY.

Jeff F.

[Eric Pevoto]

Jeff,

Hallelujah!!  While it hasn't yet reached the curriculum, the PGA is going the right direction with the little museum setup at the education center in Port St. Lucie.  

I have no doubt that the we, as club professionals, can influence our members.  The PGA will tell you that is the case with regard to teaching, equipment, and technical issues.  Who better then to have and offer an understanding of the history of the sport?  The golf course architecture elective is a hoot.

I'll be finished with the PGM in October; the interpersonal skills class (thank you sir, may I have another) will not be missed.    

[Rick Shefchik]

I contend that given the access to some of the better courses in the USA the mythical AAG becomes a more intent golfer.

Seems like most readers of this thread either missed or glossed over Jim's comment, which goes right to the heart of what Tommy's talking about.

How can you expect the average golfer to develop an appreciation for the best of what this game has to offer when the best is totally off limits to the average golfer?

[ForkaB]

I have this vision of Tommy N, in 2050, 150-200 pounds lighter with white hair and a white robe sitting in the lotus position on the first tee of Rustic Canyon, holding up a sign that says "Repent, all ye you who have blasphemed the names of MacKenzie, Doak and Shackelford."  Only the most observant will notice the welling tear in his eye as he looks out over the McMansions on the hills and the condos up and down the fairway, and the soft voice coming out of the wispy beard saying the same sad mantra:  "There used to be width here, I tell you,  There used to be width........"

I hope I am wrong.

[ForkaB]

Its "tyop" Bill!  And, if I named Hanse I'd have to name Grete and Wagner and Beethoven and all of the 7 dwarfs, so I just tried to keep things a little clean and tight.  Sorry.....

[JohnV]

Tommy, maybe all of us don't get it.  Most Americans just look at golf as a way to get out and enjoy the sunshine (well maybe not around Pittsburgh  ), the outdoors, the cartgirl and the beers.  What is wrong with that?

Let them have their fun without worrying about the architectural splendors or disasters that have been created for them.

I'd imagine that many Scotsmen feel the same way.  It might be surprising to you how many Brits love golf in Florida vs back home.

[mike_malone]

 I do not mind whether the majority "gets it".I do mind when they change courses.

[NAF]

-

[Dan Kelly]

I contend that given the access to some of the better courses in the USA the mythical AAG becomes a more intent golfer.

Seems like most readers of this thread either missed or glossed over Jim's comment, which goes right to the heart of what Tommy's talking about.

How can you expect the average golfer to develop an appreciation for the best of what this game has to offer when the best is totally off limits to the average golfer?

Rick --

I didn't miss it or gloss it over. If you will search the archives, I'm sure you'll find a too-long post about the popularity of Country Clubs for a Day, in which I made exactly the same observation.

There wasn't any appetite, then, for talking about it. And I don't suppose there's any more now. And I don't suppose there's anything much to be done about it, even if the appetite were there.

Averagely yours,

Dan

[iamafrog2]

I don't think a lot of you guys get it.  Golf is not about what courses you play and how much you know about them.  Golf is about swinging the sticks and posting a good score for who you are.  Its about enjoying yourself with friends, family no matter what course you are on.  
Yeah sure, Shinnecock and Pine Valley are great but at some level though I respect even more the guy who can enjoy himself at a small nothing course as much as when he plays the best.

JM

[Mike_Sweeney]

Dan & Rick,

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it is that simple either. When I first moved to New York, I had few contacts to play at the big private clubs. Thus, Bethpage Black was my "home" course along with Montauk Downs on summer weekends. In the early 90's you could basically walk onto Bethpage Black which was a great Tillie course long before the US Open or Rees Jones did his work. The bunkers were pretty screwed up back then but the basic course was in decent condition. I never played The Red until after The Open (couldn't get on The Black after The Open). The Black was the only course I ever played at Bethpage as it was the easiest to get on, and the only one that interested me (red is very nice too). Baltusrol and Winged Foot were in their prime US Open days, yet it was still easy to get on BB. The main reasons that people did not play The Black (the other courses were jammed) was that you had to walk and carry your bag, and it was too difficult for the average golfer.

The AAG now all want to play Bethpage Black not for its architecture, but due to its status as a US Open course. Sadly, they have caddies now at BB. Thus, I don't really see the AAG rushing to go play non-Top 20, non-Professional courses as much as people believe. Last winter I bought an outing at National for a fraction of the price that the Winged Foot outing went for. Why? Obviously The US Open. Would all of New York rush out to play Fenway now that it is on the Golfweek Classic list. Most of the New Yorkers would drive to Boston looking for the Yankees .

PS. I took my 7 year old last fall to play Jim Kennedy/Hotchkiss School's 9 hole course. Without any prompting, my son said "cool green" on the 4th or 5th green which has 2 or 3 long thin bumps in the green. Thus, I am working on the New Yorkers one at a time !!

[questionmark]

If Americans "got it", whatever it is, then you would have to find some other way to make yourself into an elite knowledge holder, wouldn't you? You're better off if they don't get it, then you get to better than them, don't you?

mysterian

[Michael Dugger]

Interesting thread raised by Tommy.  I can't help but feel that golf is not unlike numerous other "disciplines."  

There are people out there who gush over the sound emitted by a Ducati motorcycle.  They can wax lyrical for hours and hours about the feel of the Italian leather on their proverbial "bum" and how riding their bike is a spiritual experience.

My boss restores old Alfa Romeos and to hear him talk of them makes it obvious that it's a deep seated personal love affair.

My good buddy builds custom mountain bikes.  To him there is nothing more foul than for Joe Blow to drop in Costco and pick themselves up a brand new Skykomish.

Have you seen the movie Adaptation?  If not check it out, a pretty good flick.  Chris Cooper's character is a Orchid freak!

To me, a car gets me from point a to point b.  Same with a bicycle.  A flower smells nice and impresses the ladies but I'll never get into them like George C. Thomas or the guy in Adaptation.

So it goes with golf, IMHO.  Those of us who comes here and read these pages are into it.  Does this necessarily mean that there is something wrong with those golfers who aren't?  I say no, but they may be missing out on something for not "getting it."

I think to golf is to accomplish a different goal for all of us.  Some just want to slam brews and yuk it up with their buddies.  Some want to be great players.  Some look to it for spirituality.  To those who don't get out of it what we gca'ers get out of is, I truly hope they "get it" somewhere else.  Their Ducati, their flowers, their yoga, etc...

[Mike Hendren]

questionmark,

Your post made me want to cry 96 tears

Mike

[Norbert P]

  I always wanted an Alfa Romeo Duetto boattail Spyder but I failed to heed advice and did NOT invest in "plastics".

[Dan Grossman]

I think some folks are missing some things in this thread.  I think there is a difference between "Golf in America" and "Golf Architecture in America."  Most people play golf because they enjoy the challenge, relaxation or whatever about trying to put a golf ball into a hole in the least number of strokes possible.  That is why maintenance is such a big issue for most golfers, because it directly affects their ability to get the ball into the hole.

I don't think it is really fair to talk about "Joe Sixpack" with a 22 handicap all the time.  There are just some people that choose to focus on the getting the ball between point A and Point B, and don't really care about what is in between.  

Other folks (mostly on this website) really care about what is between point A and point B.  While it is important to try to get the ball into the hole in a small number of strokes, it isn't what makes them enjoy the game.  It is the mental game that the golfer plays with the architect to try to figure out what he was thinking and re-create the "perfect" or "preferred" shot for each hole.

Look at cars, for example.  The first group of people are the ones that drive Hondas (like me) and don't understand how the car works, only that it gets me from Point A to Point B using the least amount of gas, in a high amount of safety and comfort without problems.  Compared to a person who owns a Ferrarri, who's ultimate goal is not really to get from Point A to Point B, but to ENJOY the trip.

I think we sometimes forget the distinction and need to remember that understanding Golf Architecture is different from playing golf.  Most of the professionals in the US don't get golf architecture either.  Most of them would probably argue that we don't get golf in America since we (or at least me, anyway) are unable to hit a 2-iron 220 yards and stop it close to a pin.

[Marty Bonnar]

Shivas, you said:

'You guys would be STUNNED at the number of guys here in Chicago, supposedly a relatively worldly, hip, happnin' city, who have no idea what the National Golf Links is'.

I have a question which relates to that statement, from this side of the Atlantic...

How many of those guys would actually ever have the opportunity of playing that course?

What I'm getting at is -
I could name maybe three or four courses in our whole teeny-tiny country (Bonnie Scotland) that would be difficult or impossible to get on. You know where they are...

Then I see lots of famous USA course names bandied about on GCA which I assume (rightly or wrongly?) are possibly/probably outwith (an old Scottish bit of legalese) the access of the average Joe.

Could you please give us poor Scottish relatives an idea of the exclusivity of some of the places of which we oft speak?? I think it might help us get some perspective on the value of criticism. Is it all very well for us to debate the relative merits of this, that and the other when the places we are evaluating are only oases of Class, accessible by very few? Or should we perhaps add to an evaluation of a course, a value relating to how accessible it is?

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating a free-for-all, pay your money and tee off approach. I'm only interested in comparing how different (or similar??) we are trans-atlantic.

FBD

PS Don't even bother citing Augusta - I think we know where we stand there...!

[Dan Grossman]

My thoughts exactly, mdugger.  I think we were typing them at about the same time!!  

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