[Ran Morrissett]

Part of the mystery of The Old Course is how a group of four aged 15, 35, 55 and 75 can equally have a good time - is there any higher compliment for a design?

Another mystery of The Old Course is its influence/lack of influence on subsequent golf course architects. Some like MacKenzie and Macdonald were heavily influenced and thus, perhaps as a result, their courses remain a delight to play throughout one's life.

In terms of a course that best captures the sporting spirit and strategic challenge of The Old Course, one that springs to mind is Garden City Golf Club for the following reasons:

1. wide fairways, with preferred sides based on hole locations
2. greens that are open in front
3. greens that run away from the player (this is extremely important as a cunning three wood from a 75 year old can best a short iron approach from a 35 year old)
4. irregularly shaped and placed bunkers with a great variety of depth that create an element of chance as to one's fate
5. few forced carries
6. an open, treeless environment
7. ideal sandy loam
8. An easy walk with no hilliness as well as a similar sense of going out and of returning
9. At a stretch, even the pars were once identical with fourteen par fours, two par fives and two par threes as Emmet's 12th was a short two shotter and the 17th was termed a par four on occasion by Travis.
10. Finally, its great Eden finisher is a clear sign what Travis was thinking.

Does any course better embody so many of the playing elements that make The Old Course a joy to play throughout one's life? Strong cases can be made for NGLA, Oakmont, Westward Ho!, Royal Melbourne, and Rustic Canyon - where else?

Cheers,

[THuckaby2]

Interesting that you'd put Rustic Canyon in this list, Ran.  I don't know that I'd take it that far... but heck, if it's in this list, then Wild Horse in Nebraska is FOR SURE.  It embodies each of your first 8 reasons you list for Garden City without a doubt, and I'd add these also:

9. SERIOUS wind, which changes direction often, making the course play many different ways;
10. SCREAMING firm and fast conditions, making the ground game not an option, but mandatory.

I'd also venture to say that Sand Hills meets these criteria also, very easily, with the only difference being the difficult forced carries off the back tees, thus requiring that the 15, 35, 55 and 75 year olds play different tees to get the same enjoyment.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Ran- Throughout ones life, until they become one of the greatest players in the world?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

GCGC usually enjoys a good breeze from the south-south west
adding to its appeal.

I think the one tee per hole at GCGC gives that group of golfers you list a sense of equality in their play of the golf course, as well.

I would add NGLA as well.

[CB]

How about Pinehurst #2?  Reasons 1,2,5,6,7,8 apply here and maybe 4 as well.  I can easily see a 75-year old hitting a nifty little run-up 3-wood or 5 iron from just off the green, while a hot-shot 15- or 35-year old tries a spinning lob wedge from the same spot only to see the ball roll back to his feet.

[Mike_Cirba]

*The following is repeated from an earlier thread...Since I think it was me who originally raised the comparison between Rustic Canyon and The Old Course, let me try to explain where I believe the similarities lie;

I'm not sure that it's any particular hole, but more the theme and atmosphere of the Course in general, particularly the following features;

* Althought not a true "out and back" routing, in most places the Course is two holes wide, and each nine has the distinct feeling of completing a loop.

* The fairways are enormously wide, with just the natural contour and man-made bunkering providing relief.

* The "blending" of adjacent fairways on a number of holes into one wide, playable expanse of short grass.

* There are almost no trees on the property, with an openness that provides visual expanses both along the length of the Course as well as across to golfers on adjoining holes.

* Greens are similarly low-profile, deceptively shaped, generally large, and just use the existing terrain and significant undulations to create challenge .  In other words, like the Old Course, they seem to just flow out of the fairway and are simply mowed shorter.

* Short green to tee walks, with no real severe elevation changes.

* Fairway sand hazards are mostly all located "within" the fairway widths, including some smack dab in the center.

* Multiple options for lines of attack on nearly every hole.

* Many holes require challenging hazards to create a preferred angle for the subsequent shot.

* Dependent on hole location, approaches from the less than ideal spot are often semi-blind or minimally very awkward.

* Many holes require some carry over broken ground to reach the fairway, which sometimes can obscure or deceive the proper line from the tee.

* The low-lying native bushes and scrub which line many holes along only one side of the fairway have the same general look as gorse.

* The Course benefits from ocean breezes, which often shift direction in sort of a whirlpool effect in the Canyon.

* Water is not used as a hazard.

* Bunkers are deep, rugged, and penal.

* Even the fence that aligns the property is similarly spare and Rustic, and plays an OB role on the par five 13th that is similar to 14 at TOC.  It also comes into play on the first three holes.

* A wide variety of hole lengths, including some very short par fours with severe greens.  

* The emphasis on creating playability for the ground game, as well as the variety of recovery possibiities (including some very intense ones) around the greens.

* Non-obvious strategies abound on many holes, and there is a variability in the design that would make each hole play wholly differently due to day-to-day factors such as wind direction, hole location, and the courage of the individual.

Since posting that, I've been to Sand Hills, and many of the same attributes apply.

[THuckaby2]

Well said, Mike.  But I read that and still come back thinking most of those things apply MORE at Wild Horse than Rustic... am I missing something?

HUGE CAVEAT:  I have only rode around Rustic in a cart, haven't played it yet.  You know also we played WH in strong winds and screaming fast.  Rustic looked to be nowhere near the firm and fast I saw at WH.

Maybe my caveat explains things?

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Wild Horse plays like a true links, and more so than any other course I've seen in this country, as we all seemed to agree.

However, The Old Course is not the links I would compare it to specifically.  The routing is much more spread out and multi-dimensional, and the strategy a bit more obvious for that comparison to hold.

In thinking about it, it's really the "two hole wide" intimacy of most of Rustic Canyon, as well as the extremely low-profile...maybe better stated as "no-profile", greens that just seem to be extensions of the natural fairway and mown, that really reminded me of TOC.  It's also the fact that many of the holes don't dictate a thing to the golfer...they just sit there and give you enough room to figure out how to play them best given the factors of the given day.  

I don't know if that distinction makes sense, but Wild Horse might be more in the category of a Portmarnock, for instance.  

What do you think?

[THuckaby2]

That makes perfect sense and well said, Mike.  What keeps making me compare WH to TOC is really the screaming fast conditions, which I did find at WH but didn't at Rustic.  The two-holes wide feel and low profile greensite at Rustic are definitely reminiscent of TOC though - right on.  But I keep weighing this back and forth and well... your points make sense but... for me they are outweighed by the conditions.  Maybe it's a CA thing, and maybe I found Rustic on a "soft" day.  There was quite a bit of dew on the ground...

So yes, design-wise, Rustic does greater reflect St. Andrews.  But which course really can be said to "capture the sporting spirit and strategic challenge" of TOC, as Ran asks?  

I never ever putted from off the green, nor bounced a ball 50 yards short intentionally, anywhere to greater effect than WH outside of TOC itself.  To me that's the sporting spirit and strategic challenge.  Perhaps some day Rustic will have this and then all questions will cease.  But does it now?

Does this make any sense?

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Yes, it makes perfect sense.  I think you're looking at more of the maintenance meld and I'm looking more at the design considerations.  

Looking at it from the perspective of firm and fast, I've played no other course in the US that competes on that level with Wild Horse.  

However, when I played Rustic Canyon, it accommodated the ground game well in every respect. No, it wasn't putt from 50 yards off the green SCREAMING fast, but perhaps 20.  Of course, with my wedge game I'd be trying to putt out of US Open-style rough if I could!  

[THuckaby2]

This goes beyond maintenance meld, though... I was really trying to answer Ran's question - which to me asked what course plays the most like TOC.  I can see how we interpreted this differently, though.

The morning I was at Rustic, I watched several people play #4 and 4 consecutive shots hit the green and held, even backed up - and NOT due to the contour.  Try that at WH... I know their INTENT is firm and fast, but we'll see how that plays for the coddled SoCal public.  Here's hoping they learn...

TH

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tom,
The day I played RC it was fairly fast, probably because they knew a number of raters and VIPs were playing and they set it up that way. But I can tell you that it's damn hard to keep a course less then a year old firm and fast through it's first summer. It takes a while for the turf to mature and until it does it's difficult to keep it on the edge all the time. I know your not complaining about the conditions, it's just when I played it you needed to use the ground on a number of holes. Of course I found myself 30-60 yards from the greens a number of times with the number of short 4's and reachable 5's. One of the things I like was the number of half pars on the course. After I played RC I remarked that it was the first course I had played since TOC where the ground game was required. Guess I need to take a trip to Neb. For those of you in the upper Midwest, the Kingsley Club also forces you to use the ground, but it reminded me more of Western Gails, because of the fairways and grassy dunes, then TOC.  

[DMoriarty]

Tom,

Rustic has been playing a little soft in the mornings.  Because we had a very dry winter and spring in SC, and because Rustic is a very, very young course, I assume that Mr. Hicks is heavily watering in the morning in an excess of caution, to keep the course alive.  Try it in the afternoon for a truer picture of how the course plays (and will play in the future, when the course matures, and it is not so dry.)

I am amazed that you saw four shots in a row hold and back up on number 4.  I dont think I have ever seen any balls back up, except balls hit on the front third of the green (short of the hump).  Where was the pin?  Have any other Rustic regulars seen golfers having much success on number 4 with the aerial game?

SC golfers being coddled at Rustic?  You havent spent enough time in the fine restrooms just next to the trailer.  

[David Kelly]

David M.
I have seldom seen golfers get it close to the pin on #4 at Rustic Canyon using any method and I certainly haven't seen people spinning their shots there. Shots into the hump might check and roll back but even that is rare.

I play RC almost exclusively in the late morning and early afternoon and while the course plays faster than in the morning its not as firm and fast as I originally thought it would be - but still faster than almost anywhere else in SoCal.

As for the "restrooms", for anyone out there thinking of providing port-a-potties for their golfers I would beg you to please get the kind with the urinals!  

[Greg Ramsay]

To answer this question, you first must ask "What are the elements of the Old Course?"  My recollections of 2 fantastic years wandering past the Dunvegan Hotel to the 1st tee starters box are

1) Always asking which direction is the wind blowing?  This influences the strategy on every single shot, and ensures that from day to day the golf course is quite different
2) On each tee asking where is the pin today?  Beacuse of the multiple driving lines on each hole (generally many more than simply 'one side of the fairway or the other') you have to ask where is the pin to decide where is the best line from which to attack the pin
3)Once a driving line is decided you then have to take the wind back into account for the shape of tee-shot, and of course, the same applies for the approach- floater or bump'n'run (generally), where do i want to land the ball
4)If the green is missed, you then have a myriad of options to chip or pitch or punch or putt.  Using slopes, or avoiding them.
5)Other important elements are of course the openness and 'crowded' feeling of the course, and of course the going away and returning to the town.  However these can't really be compared with many other courses outside of Scotland (Moray, Carnoustie etc.)

Basically you are always given choices and challenged 'What is the best way to get my ball to the hole' and not only 'on what line to the hole' but also 'what way...ground or air'.  On tight,  target golf courses, the course dictates the best way to the hole, and if you don't do that, there is rarely any recovery.  That is another great aspect of the Old Course, you rarely have to give up the hole (as long as you avoid the pots).  The key is that imagination is highly rewarded at TOC, but not at many modern courses.

To answer the question, in my experience I would say Royal Melbourne offers the wind and many of the same strategic choices (width, variety of approaches, short game variety), the Ocean Course at Kiawah may not offer as many bump'n'run and open approaches, but certainly offers the openness, the wind and quite a bit of width/decision making.  I always thought the old Augusta used to feature similar traits.  It was a course both Nick Faldo and Seve Ballesteros could win on.  I'm not sure Seve or Sergio could ever win at the new Augusta- there is simply not enough room for imagination.  

I know there are many others, i even thought i detected hints of it at the Old White Course at the Greenbrier, i found myself with different options on some of the holes.  CB MacDonalsd early influence i suspect, but much of it has been lost.

Greg Ramsay
www.barnbougledunes.com

[George Pazin]

bump

[Kyle Henderson]

The Castle Course

[Mark_F]

bump

George,

You did a fantastic post a while back on how to post photo's.

Don't you think you owe it to us to now do one on how to best use the search function?

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