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George Pazin

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Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« on: February 01, 2008, 04:12:36 PM »
Maybe in someplace like Russia? China? Other parts of Australia?

Just curious, I was looking at a world map this afternoon with my son and it kind of hit me.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adam Clayman

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2008, 05:59:18 PM »
George, How about Kansas, Florida, Utah and Idaho?

Even try So. America and the Maylay peninsula.


« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 04:26:46 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Craig Sweet

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2008, 07:12:43 PM »
I know of at least one in Montana...just off HWY 200 between Clearwater Junction and Ovando....great looking piece of land.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Dave McCollum

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2008, 07:27:58 PM »
Haven't been there for years, but maybe near Bruneau in SW Idaho.  There is a State park in an area with big 250 foot dunes.  The surrounding area is Idaho range land.  More sage brush and cheatgrass than prairie.

Peter Nomm

Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 07:31:45 PM »
There is soma absolutely gorgeous terrain in NW Oklahoma, near the Cimarron River, the Kansas Border, and down into the Canadian River area of the NE Texas panhandle.

And the land is CHEAP, too ($500 - $1000 per acre).

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 07:59:27 PM »
Here's the plot, George.  The land already has been selected for acquisition. You and I become equal partners, 60-40.  We can start now.

Or, if you've got the patience, we wait for the seas to rise and get the double bonus of a sandy site that's also oceanfront property.

January temps will regularly hit 40C, but we will have ourselves a great course!

And the "in the meantime" is already worked out: we will sell the fruit off the trees.

Check it out by clicking this sentence.[/url]

Mark

PS Don't sweat the details, I'm totally jacked in down there -- just wire the money to Credit Suisse account CS5693J5TU-4572/Frostproof...

PPS The design plans are in place, too: we are going to build an exact replica of ANGC...on the day it opened.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 08:01:26 PM by Mark Bourgeois »

Michael Moore

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2008, 08:10:29 PM »
Other than what?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Tom_Doak

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2008, 12:39:15 AM »
Someone told me just yesterday there was sandy property through a belt of Georgia ... an extension of the sand swath that is Pinehurst.  This was news to me, I thought all of Georgia except Sea Island was clay.

Norbert P

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2008, 01:13:27 AM »
George, check out this website - with pictures.

 Juniper Dunes Wilderness in Eastern Washington

http://www.spokaneoutdoors.com/Juniper.htm

Dave Mc, Bruneau Dunes is an awesome area.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Ryan Farrow

Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2008, 03:18:19 AM »
Sand Here: http://www.thewildernessclub.com/home

and here: http://www.sandhollowresort.com/index.php

Me thinks anywhere a glacier was, sand is.

I also heard the city of Denver is located on 300' of sand.


michael_j_fay

Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2008, 07:17:26 AM »
George:

The is a huge area of sandhills just south of Pinehurst in South Carolina. I have no information on it but have driven through it a number of times.

Ray Richard

Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2008, 09:19:28 AM »
In Freeport Maine, about 10 minutes from LL Bean, there is a site called the "Sahara of Maine." Don't get discouraged by the ever present granite  ledge on the ride in, this place is full of golf course topography with a linksland feel-rolling hills with sugar sand everywhere.

Richard Choi

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2008, 10:03:35 AM »
There is soma absolutely gorgeous terrain in NW Oklahoma, near the Cimarron River, the Kansas Border, and down into the Canadian River area of the NE Texas panhandle.

And the land is CHEAP, too ($500 - $1000 per acre).

Hmmm... I wonder if we have enough interest from people on this board to buy some cheap, remote land anywhere in this country and build our own Sand Hills. I would seriously be interested if it was around $10k per person commitment.

Peter Nomm

Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2008, 10:25:53 AM »
There is soma absolutely gorgeous terrain in NW Oklahoma, near the Cimarron River, the Kansas Border, and down into the Canadian River area of the NE Texas panhandle.

And the land is CHEAP, too ($500 - $1000 per acre).


Hmmm... I wonder if we have enough interest from people on this board to buy some cheap, remote land anywhere in this country and build our own Sand Hills. I would seriously be interested if it was around $10k per person commitment.

Count me in!  I'll be the pro.

FYI there is a website I regularly check - www.huntingcountry.net

There is a lot of very FLAT land but if you keep looking there are some neat properties.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 10:29:00 AM by Peter Nomm »

George Pazin

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2008, 01:52:06 PM »
Hmmm... I wonder if we have enough interest from people on this board to buy some cheap, remote land anywhere in this country and build our own Sand Hills. I would seriously be interested if it was around $10k per person commitment.

Things like this have been suggested before - Tom D was almost working for me down in Tasmania! :) - but no one has ever come even remotely close to putting together enough $$$. There aren't enough dreamers out there.

Thanks for all the responses, everyone, though I should add that my original question was more along the lines of whether there are sand hills type areas in other places around the world, outside of the US. It was more of a curiosity thing than anything else.

And Mark, check your Swiss bank account, if they haven't already contacted you.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Norbert P

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2008, 03:12:38 PM »
This isn't exactly inland but most of it actually is.  

  The Great Dune of Pyla    near Bordeaux

  http://www.dune-pyla.com/english/dossiers/dossiers.php?id_dossier=1  

"The western part of the Aquitaine region is covered by sands in continental and coastal dunes. This region is planted by pines (the largest pine forest in Europe) during the XIX century, may be subdivided into two areas, as follows:


1 – A great plain called "Les Landes de Gascogne" (the sandy moor of Gascony) contains numerous continental dunes, generally parabolic dunes and sand ridges (Enjalbert, 1960; Legigan, 1979).

2 – The area of coastal dunes, which is 8km wide and 230km long from the Gironde (Pointe de Grave) to Biarritz in the South. Since the end of the XIXth century, these coastal dunes have been covered by a pine forest.

The "Landes de Gascogne" forms a green triangle (Pine forest) with the Gironde estuary to the North and the Atlantic Ocean to the West. The coastal dunes are located between lakes and the shoreline.



 May I borrow 20  million dollars?   I promise to pay it back after I spend it.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

RJ_Daley

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2008, 04:09:42 PM »
The coast and 10 miles inland along the length of Chile has some outrageously beautiful terrain, sand, copper, chemical colors.  I don't know how turf would do, but google earth or live maps aerials are enough to get very giddy over...  8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

paul cowley

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2008, 04:31:58 PM »
Someone told me just yesterday there was sandy property through a belt of Georgia ... an extension of the sand swath that is Pinehurst.  This was news to me, I thought all of Georgia except Sea Island was clay.

Tom's source is correct, as there are quite a few sand belt areas that run through middle Ga, SC and NC [Pinehurst and its surrounds being the best known].

Most of these are generally in a belt that is just below the Piedmont fall line and undoubtedly old shore line formations from some X million years ago.

There are some impressive sand hill elevations just south of Columbia, SC.....with some of the best being in a large military base [and I am forgetting its name].

Once you jump the Savannah River into Ga, there is a fair amount of sand hill country around Vidalia, Metter, Cobtown and its surrounds. The main state highway through the area is called the "Wire Grass Trail"......and for those of you who aren't aware, wire grass only grows in sand hill formations.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Peter Nomm

Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2008, 07:03:50 PM »
Someone told me just yesterday there was sandy property through a belt of Georgia ... an extension of the sand swath that is Pinehurst.  This was news to me, I thought all of Georgia except Sea Island was clay.

There are some impressive sand hill elevations just south of Columbia, SC.....with some of the best being in a large military base [and I am forgetting its name].


Wow - I just drove through there about 3-weeks ago and I saw exactly what you were talking about.  In particular there were a few places where the erosion valleys from small streams created some extra added features.  

I think there are still a lot of great sites yet to be discovered!

RJ_Daley

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2008, 07:33:25 PM »
I used to make a bit of a hobby out of looking for sand deposits in our area.  I usually go to the county library, or various county land planning divisions, and ask to look at the soil maps.  

Here in Brown County, WI., it is a lot like Georgia clay.  Some of the greasiest tight clay soils you will find.  Yet, there is an odd sand belt about 1-2 miles wide that runs for about 12 miles.  Not too uncoincidentally, there are 4 golf courses sited along that sand seam...

County land planning offices are a good resource for aerials on 1"=100 or 200', soil maps, topos, etc.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Peter Pallotta

Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2008, 09:33:20 PM »
Paul C -

this is probably a dumb question, but "Is sand always sand"?

Are the 'properties' of the sand/sand belt in North Carolina the same as those in Georgia?

Can you grow the same type of grass, does it drain the same way, does it 'form' into similar features?

And, are either/both of those sandbelts similar to the Pine Valley site? (If pine trees grow naturally and abundantly at Pine Valley, what grows abudantly in that Georgian sand belt besides wire grass?)

And, in any of those sites, would the sand 'behave' the same way as the sandy soil at, say, The Old Course?

And -- even if sand is not always sand, is there enough of a difference to be significant in terms of building a golf course?

Thanks
Peter

« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 06:55:14 AM by Peter Pallotta »

michael_j_fay

Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2008, 08:50:06 AM »
Peter:

I am not expert in any of the fields necessary to answer your question but I do offer the fallowing:

It appears that the same massive piece of ice that moved the sand 100 miles inland to the Pinehurst area probably deposited the sand in the rest of the belt. I know the area in northern South Carolina looks very similar to that found in Pinehurst.

Pinehurst has sand that is between 12 and 80 feet deep in the Sandhills. It would not be that difficult to test the depth in So. Carolina and Georgia. I would assume that at the veery least the drainage characteristics would be the same.

Over the years, when a new course was built on the Sandhills in Pinehurst, the grow in is nearly overnight. At the same time when other courses that have been built in the Pinehurst area, yet not on the sand hills the result was quite different.

paul cowley

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2008, 01:22:12 PM »
Paul C -

this is probably a dumb question, but "Is sand always sand"?

Are the 'properties' of the sand/sand belt in North Carolina the same as those in Georgia?

Can you grow the same type of grass, does it drain the same way, does it 'form' into similar features?

And, are either/both of those sand belts similar to the Pine Valley site? (If pine trees grow naturally and abundantly at Pine Valley, what grows abundantly in that Georgian sand belt besides wire grass?)

And, in any of those sites, would the sand 'behave' the same way as the sandy soil at, say, The Old Course?

And -- even if sand is not always sand, is there enough of a difference to be significant in terms of building a golf course?

Thanks
Peter




Peter...I am much less concerned with you asking a dumb question than my providing a dumb answer....but lets see where my little bit of knowledge takes us.

For golf purposes sand is classified by size, hardness, purity [the amount of soils and silt that it is combined with], and shape [whether it is round or more angular...which is referred to as its degree of 'sharpness'].

Generally the sands in the sand belts I am referring to are similar, in that they are of good size and sharper than the sand one typically finds on the SE coastal beach areas, which can be rounder and smaller.....but this can vary greatly....and yes, the inland sands from Ga to NC are similar.

Very good drainage is a characteristic that all the sand areas have in common, and the vegetation that can exist in these very dry areas is what changes the most from the north to the south. In the south Long Leaf pines predominate, along with various scrub oaks and other drought resistant understory shrubs, grasses, mosses and lichens.
In the north the pines become shorter needled [Sand Pine species] and the oaks and the other understory plants and grasses are similar in that they must be able to exist through drought and fire.......in fact all the ecosystems in both north and south have evolved to be able to withstand fire, and some plants even require it to help regenerate.
The Pine Barrens of NJ, where Pine Valley is located, has a sister area called the Pine Bush in upstate NY.

The turf grasses that are required to play golf in any of the areas I have referenced are generally not native....they only grow with the assistance of additional water and fertilizers, and I think this is one of the major differences between the linksland areas of the British Isles and the sand belt areas of the East Coast.

The main thing that all these areas have in common is good drainage created by the sandy soils....its really the types of vegetation, dictated by climate and weather, that create the differences we can appreciate.

whew...... ;)
 
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Peter Pallotta

Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2008, 01:36:04 PM »
Michael, Paul - thanks very much. I couldn't haved asked for more.

Peter

Keith Williams

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Re:Are there other inland sand hills-type areas around the world?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2008, 09:46:41 AM »
Paul and Tom are correct about the sand hills region of Georgia.  There is a band running NE to SW across the state along the "fall line" from Augusta - Macon - Columbus where the prehistoric limits of the Atlantic Ocean existed.

Additional information:

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-2144

http://www.gadnr.org/cwcs/Documents/ecoregion.html

on the Georgia DNR link, click on the map link to see a really good illustration delineating all of Georgia's ecoregions including the sand hills.

Of additional note, a significant band of kaolin clay also exists in close proximity to the Georgia Sand hills resulting in Georgia being one of the world's largest producers of clay.  I have always wondered if the lower strata beneath the clay was sand, and if so could a sand-based golf course make an interesting reclamation project for a completed mining operation.  Right now mining companies usually just cover the site with some fill and plant lots of pine trees.

Keith

Edit:  Sorry for the break in the first link, I can't seem to fix it, but it works if copied and pasted into the browser.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2008, 09:54:36 AM by Keith Williams »

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