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Mike Mosely

The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« on: January 23, 2008, 02:00:03 PM »
Lets talk some nuts and bolts about torrey before and after...

We all know the mantra of the USGA tightening the fairways and speeding up the greens, but what specifically will be different between this weekend and the US Open?

What holes will have risk reward options reduced?  Will faster greens take away some hole locations?  What greens contain the most contour?  WIll approach shots really be all that different?  Will tee balls be shorter because players will want to lay back?  Or, like Harrington said last year, will they dry bomb and gauge?

J Sadowsky

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2008, 02:13:40 PM »
I thought they were using just the North course for this week.

JESII

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2008, 02:14:40 PM »
Interesting topic...

I do not know Torrey Pines at all, but I would doubt the fairways will be any narrower in June than this week...deeper rough maybe, but I doubt they'll actual change the mowing lines by any noticeable amount.

How about firmness? Is it generally firm in June compared to now? this would make the fairways PLAY narrower.

Mike Mosely

Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2008, 02:17:21 PM »
Justin is that the case?  Are they not playing at all on the south this year?

J Sadowsky

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2008, 02:18:37 PM »
I had read that last year but I can't seem to confirm it.

EDIT: According to pga.com, looks like they will be playing the South course.  Sorry.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 02:20:16 PM by Justin Sadowsky »

Mike Mosely

Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2008, 02:21:22 PM »
OK...questions still stand.

Garland Bayley

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2008, 02:23:15 PM »
I suspect that because of the shortness of daylight, they are forced to use two courses this time of year if they are going to have a full field event. Therefore, they should be using South too.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Greg Krueger

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2008, 02:27:12 PM »
The course should play much faster & firmer in June compared to now. The greens will be alot faster and the rough tougher.
They are playing both courses this week.

JESII

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2008, 02:31:39 PM »
They always play both courses thursday and Friday and historically have used just the South on the weekend.

Mike Mosely

Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2008, 02:59:19 PM »
The course should play much faster & firmer in June compared to now. The greens will be alot faster and the rough tougher.
They are playing both courses this week.

So how will that translate into what the players do?  Will they lay back more? Take fewer chances?  What holes will play differently?  Will any par-4s play a half-stroke harder?  easier?

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2008, 03:00:56 PM »
I wonder if they will experience the dreaded June Gloom.   I been to San Diego two different times in the month of June and the weather was definitely gloomy.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 03:01:52 PM by Craig Edgmand »

JohnH

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2008, 03:27:48 PM »
Tiger stated today in his press conference (and I paraphrase) that remembering Torrey from his amateur days playing in July that it was baked out, fast, and not uncommon to have fog delays in the mornings.  

The fairways will certainly be more narrow.  One would have to believe they will add a couple of feet of quickness to the greens also.  It will be typical US Open setup -- hit it straight and putt well.

JESII

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2008, 03:35:50 PM »
JohnH,

Are you saying they are going to change their mowing lines between this event and the tournament in 5 months? Are the grasses the same from the fairway to the first cut to the regular rough?

Pete Lavallee

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2008, 04:55:11 PM »
The original contract with the USGA had this years Buick finishing on the North to reduce the familiarity with this years Open venue. Of course the powers that be thought they would have a "Reestored" North course; but that was soundly voted down by the local golfers, not wishing a repeat of what happened on the South, i.e., a course too tough for the local muni golfers. Since the redo didn't take place the USGA allowed the South to host the final 2 rounds this year.

As to the difference between Jan and June, here's my take:

During Jan. there is sure to be some rain, so even if they totally withheld water from the course it would get wet at one point. Add this to the normal watering and the course is not going to be as dry and fast as the USGA would like. The rough lines at both Torrey courses are burned in by the tournament; they do not change once the TOUR leaves town. Some holes are ridiculously tight year round: the 9th on the North is 18 yards wide and the 15th on the South is 17 yards wide from my memory of pacing them off. The paper said Sun. that the fairways would average 24-25 feet, that was retracted yesterday as a misprint, they will average 24-25 yards. To me they would need to be expanded to get that wide. Botton line, very little difference between the Buick and the Open.

The greens are finally coming around since they let the Poa Anna invade. They will be around a 9 for the Buick and they are predicting between 11 to 12 for the Open. All 18 greens are all seperated into 3 sections by various ridges. The pinnable areas are all dead flat, so they can put the pins anywhere they want. The difficulty will be in putting from section to section during the Open. The greens with the most slope are 2, 3 and 5; you might see someone back one off the front section of 2. That is really the only seriously sloped pinnable portion of any green.

The only changes contemplated for the Open are the new tee on the par 5 13th, which will require a 250 yard carry over the barranca, with no bail out area. There is a also a tee on the par 3 16th to the left of the normal one that will require a carry of sabout 185 yards over the barranca. To my knowledge neither of these tess have ever been used during the Buick. The one on 13 is new and the one on 16 would cause a disconnect since it is about 60 yards to the left of the normal tee.

The City tried a "monostand" project to get the course 100% Kikuyu. They didn't sclap or overseed for the last 2 years in hopes of having the Kikuyu come out of dormancy quicker. Don't forget that every morning in June is overcast, the marine layer burns off around noon. This makes for cooler soil temps, not condusive to a warm season grass kicking into full growth. We used to play the City Amateur in June and the rough was usually very sparce because the annual rye overseed was about dead and the Kikuyu had not yet kicked in. The fairways were starved for water this summer in an attempt to drive out the cool season grasses. Limiting all carts to the cart path has greatly improved fairway conditions.
The USGA visited right after Oakmont and declared that the roughs would need to be overseeded; they will not be 100% Kikuyu. The City also spent a lot of money installing Kikuyu sod around the fringes; not quite sure how that project is progressing.

I'lm hoping to go Friday, looks like rain tomorrow and will file a full report.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

jeffwarne

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2008, 05:09:38 PM »
Amazing all that nonsense is needed to "identify" the best player.

I remember watching them overseed the rough at Shinnecock to get this thin weird rough and then watching them order the bluestem /fescue rough cut.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Mosely

Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2008, 06:17:57 PM »
I also heard 16 has a new tee...so will any holes play severely differently in June than they do now?

Pete Lavallee

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2008, 06:24:55 PM »
Since there isn't a short par 4 on the 7600 card; they might consider playing the 2cnd from the blue tees at around 330 yards. This would make the green driveable since there is a large swale short of the green; balls hitting the downslope would be able to carrom onto the putting surface.

The 6th will play as a par 4 for the Open. Other than that I would not anticiate any other changes.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 06:25:39 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

David Ober

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2008, 12:52:47 AM »
The original contract with the USGA had this years Buick finishing on the North to reduce the familiarity with this years Open venue. Of course the powers that be thought they would have a "Reestored" North course; but that was soundly voted down by the local golfers, not wishing a repeat of what happened on the South, i.e., a course too tough for the local muni golfers. Since the redo didn't take place the USGA allowed the South to host the final 2 rounds this year.

As to the difference between Jan and June, here's my take:

During Jan. there is sure to be some rain, so even if they totally withheld water from the course it would get wet at one point. Add this to the normal watering and the course is not going to be as dry and fast as the USGA would like. The rough lines at both Torrey courses are burned in by the tournament; they do not change once the TOUR leaves town. Some holes are ridiculously tight year round: the 9th on the North is 18 yards wide and the 15th on the South is 17 yards wide from my memory of pacing them off. The paper said Sun. that the fairways would average 24-25 feet, that was retracted yesterday as a misprint, they will average 24-25 yards. To me they would need to be expanded to get that wide. Botton line, very little difference between the Buick and the Open.

The greens are finally coming around since they let the Poa Anna invade. They will be around a 9 for the Buick and they are predicting between 11 to 12 for the Open. All 18 greens are all seperated into 3 sections by various ridges. The pinnable areas are all dead flat, so they can put the pins anywhere they want. The difficulty will be in putting from section to section during the Open. The greens with the most slope are 2, 3 and 5; you might see someone back one off the front section of 2. That is really the only seriously sloped pinnable portion of any green.

The only changes contemplated for the Open are the new tee on the par 5 13th, which will require a 250 yard carry over the barranca, with no bail out area. There is a also a tee on the par 3 16th to the left of the normal one that will require a carry of sabout 185 yards over the barranca. To my knowledge neither of these tess have ever been used during the Buick. The one on 13 is new and the one on 16 would cause a disconnect since it is about 60 yards to the left of the normal tee.

The City tried a "monostand" project to get the course 100% Kikuyu. They didn't sclap or overseed for the last 2 years in hopes of having the Kikuyu come out of dormancy quicker. Don't forget that every morning in June is overcast, the marine layer burns off around noon. This makes for cooler soil temps, not condusive to a warm season grass kicking into full growth. We used to play the City Amateur in June and the rough was usually very sparce because the annual rye overseed was about dead and the Kikuyu had not yet kicked in. The fairways were starved for water this summer in an attempt to drive out the cool season grasses. Limiting all carts to the cart path has greatly improved fairway conditions.
The USGA visited right after Oakmont and declared that the roughs would need to be overseeded; they will not be 100% Kikuyu. The City also spent a lot of money installing Kikuyu sod around the fringes; not quite sure how that project is progressing.

I'lm hoping to go Friday, looks like rain tomorrow and will file a full report.

PGA Tour event greens running at 9???

I highly doubt it, Pete.

I can pretty much guarantee you they will be over 10 this week. Heck I played SCGA in Murrieta on Monday, and stimped them at 11.5.

Of course, my stimpmeter is suspect according to Mucci, but I'm trying to get a proper stimpmeter so that I can "calibrate" mine....  ;D

Jim Nugent

Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2008, 04:58:22 AM »
Geoff Shackelford has pictures of some of the holes, including 16 from the new tee, on his website.  You'll have to scroll down a bit to get to them.  

Walt_Cutshall

Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2008, 08:48:49 AM »
Peter Kessler's show yesterday had the TP Super as a guest. He said the big changes to the course were that they had successfully changed the greens from a mix of bent and poa anna (80% bent) to 100% poa. He said this would allow faster, firmer surfaces for the open, but at this time of year it was usually to wet to guarantee firm surfaces. He said they has extended the cart paths to 100% coverage so that they could now confine carts to carts-only, thereby enhancing turf quality. He also said the rough was now all kykuya, although they would lightly overseed with rye (I think) for the open. He said the rough would play "at full length" this week. He didn't mention fairway widths, but did touch on some other changes to specific holes, and talked about working on all 90 bunkers.

Pete Lavallee

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2008, 11:44:55 AM »

PGA Tour event greens running at 9???

I highly doubt it, Pete.

I can pretty much guarantee you they will be over 10 this week. Heck I played SCGA in Murrieta on Monday, and stimped them at 11.5.


David,

My bad, I was going off my recollection of what was printed in the SD UT; they had said they normally run a 9 and would be at around 11 for the Buick. I was going to buy a Stimpmeter of my very own, but Pat told me I wasn't smart enough to operate it. ;D

Walt,

I didn't see Kessler's show but I'm sure the man they interviewed is Mark Woodward, the Director of Golf. The Superintendent is a woman, Candice Combs. I wonder how the rough weent from a mixture of Rye, Poa and Kikuyu to pure Kikuyu in just one year?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 11:45:37 AM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

peter_mcknight

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2008, 03:03:52 PM »
1.  Hole 6 will become a par 4 instead of a par 5 as it is this week.  Probably will play somewhere in the 523 yard range.
2.  All of the back tees, save for hole 4, 16 and 18 (maybe 2) will be used for all four rounds.  For the Buick, from what I remember, they play the Thursday/Friday round and the Saturday round somewhere in the very low 7200 range, then, on Sunday, move it back in to the 7500 range.
3.  The yardage will be 7643 yards par 71.  Apparently, the USGA had a change in heart and will have the 9th remain the par 5.  I still contend it could have played as a par 4 if needed.
4.  The rough will be a consistent 5 inches all around, along with the graudated rough concept seen in the last 2 opens.
5.  The new tee on 13 absolutely will be used.  New back tee yardage is 613.
6.  On Hole 4, the 200 yard tee will be used 3 days; the other will have the hole play at around 175.
7.  Hole 18 can play from 585 at the maximum to 540 depending on tee and hole location placement.  I'd hazard a guess 2 days will be in the 575 range (pin in the back left and right) and the other 2 days (probably including Sunday) will be in the 540-550 range with the hole location in the front near the billabong.  The hole locations in the back shelf will be placed much closer to the ridge bisecting the green than during the Buick.
8.  The USGA will use the 504 tee on Hole 12 all 4 rounds.  Guarantee this hole averages at least 4.50 for the week.
9.  Haven't seen the new tee on 16, so can't comment upon it.
10.  As to fast and firm, that hasn't really been there in 2-3 years, so that will be a bit interesting to see if the USGA can pull that one off.
11.  Greens probably will run at 12 or so on the stimp.

Card of the course

452
387 (maybe 319 one round)
198 (175 one round)
483
453
523 (4)
462
176
613
3747 yards, par 35

405
221
504
613
435
477
227 (could have some movement here)
442
572 (between 540 and 585)
3896 yards, par 36

7643 yards par 71

Kalen Braley

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2008, 05:44:02 PM »
I'd say the difference is you won't see a 7 or 5 under that were shot on the South Course today by Troy Matteson and Tiger..  ;)

Matt_Cohn

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2008, 03:47:48 PM »
They keep saying the rye grass will be gone. I don't get it. Do they think that a bunch of days in the mid-70's are going to kill off the rye?

I've played golf in Palm Springs in mid-June when it's 100 degrees but the rye grass is still around.

How are they going to get rid of it?

AndrewB

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Re:The differences between this week's Torrey and June's Torrey
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2008, 05:18:53 PM »
How are they going to get rid of it?

According to Geoff Shackelford and Mike Davis, they're not actually going to and the announcers are just mistaken.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."