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Sean_A

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Longing for F&F
« on: January 16, 2008, 09:06:58 AM »
Its been a while since I have enjoyed true f&f conditions - to the point where it was ott, but fun just the same.  Gander back to pix of just another ho hummer taken in August 06.  The natural current was on then - boo hoo.  You will notice that all of the bunkering accomodates f&f conditions.  This is the first step toward enlightenment.













Fancy sticking those trees there!  
 

Very scary tee shot in keen conditions.  There is a burn at the bottom of the valley.


The burn!  That line is the centre of the fairway - talk about tight (see bush encroachment on right).


Quite a tight little hole, but reachable.






One of my favourite looks - the fairway just flows into the green.


In an effort to keep all troozer cuffs dry I invite anyone brave or stupid enough to a game at Pennard this Sunday, January 20 at 11:54am.  I purposely gave 4 days advance notice for the folks in US.  I wouldn't want to be accused of taking money off a jet lagged fool.  If you want to play email me.

Ciao  

« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 09:09:08 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

TEPaul

Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2008, 09:14:21 AM »
Sean:

When it rained again did that grass come right back to green? That course is really browned out. I'm just wondering if that grass in those photos really is in a state of dormancy or if a lot of it was just dead.

TEPaul

Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2008, 10:13:47 AM »
Sean:

Then that grass was obviously in a very elongated state of dormancy.

In my opinion, this is the very thing that America agronomy needs to work so much harder to extend, and it has a very long way to go. But the important thing is for courses, particularly the older designs, to begin that agronomic process.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2008, 10:23:41 AM »
Sean,

Nice pictures, the greens look a little "green" or were they just in a very healthy condition?

Where is this little gem?

Chappers
Cave Nil Vino

John Moore II

Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 10:50:53 AM »
Why do so many people in general dislike courses like this one? I think that places like that are great, there is no real reason to have the fairways perfectly green at all times. Supers, members and course owners should recognize the benefits of having fast conditions on the course.

Adam Clayman

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2008, 10:55:58 AM »
Tom Paul, I'm rather shocked you would ask Sean if that grass was dead. Grass is tough stuff.
It made me laugh when the media talked about the dead greens at Shinney and the dead fairways at Hoylake. Perhaps I'm just fortunate, or, I just paid attention during those long summer droughts growing up in Chicago, BUT, The grass always came back. It goes dormant to protect itself (crown). Hopefully the super supers can add the intelligent jargon.  

At Ballyneal, I've been able to observe the pattern the turf takes, as it cycles in and out of dormancy. For me, it takes the level of awareness needed, to new heights. i.e. Starting with the turf all browned out. It rains about an inch+. Now, the turf looks brown and the mind thinks it will still act like concrete. Not so. Now, on the second day the color is coming back, leaving only the high spots with a brown patina. By the third day, the high spots have caught up and are actually green again. Here's the interesting part. On the fourth day, the whole place is green but plays like concrete. Once again faking out the brain, requiring a higher level of awareness.  To me that's golf. Not the often heard cries of " I hit that perfectly" only to see the whiners ball end up forty yards over the green. ;D
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Philippe Binette

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2008, 11:10:47 AM »
Do you think people in North America would accept these conditions?

Sean_A

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2008, 11:14:43 AM »
Sean,

Nice pictures, the greens look a little "green" or were they just in a very healthy condition?

Where is this little gem?

Chappers

Chappers

I am sure you can appreciate that letting the greens go cookie crisp brown to match the fairways would be taking an awfully high risk.  The greens were very firm despite their appearance.  

The pix are of http://www.envillegolfclub.com/ - Stourbridge way.  They have Open qualifying for the next few years.  http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news/Enville_Golf_Club_British_Open_Qualifying_2007_article_113463.html  There seems to be somewhat of a rotation between Little Aston, Beau Desert and Copt Heath, but I could be wrong about that - it may just be coincidence with my time in the area.  

There about 18 holes on a beautiful heathland and 18 which are more parkland.  Unfortunately, the heathland is mixed between the 18s.  If a proper archie was brought in to re-design a new heathland course it could be a cracker.  The club would never go for it because it would mean not having two 18s - though a proper archie could probably fashion a parkland 9 holer without moving the clubhouse.  

Tom

Summer dormancy is a bi-product of unwatered fairways.  The reason it was a bit ott was because its difficult to keep the greens which are obviously watered in tune with approach areas.  That said, clubs generally do a good job over here not out of some adherence to a philsophy other than saving brass.

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 11:19:17 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

TEPaul

Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2008, 11:25:37 AM »
"Tom Paul, I'm rather shocked you would ask Sean if that grass was dead. Grass is tough stuff.
It made me laugh when the media talked about the dead greens at Shinney and the dead fairways at Hoylake. Perhaps I'm just fortunate, or, I just paid attention during those long summer droughts growing up in Chicago, BUT, The grass always came back. It goes dormant to protect itself (crown). Hopefully the super supers can add the intelligent jargon."


Adam:

I suspected as much of that course over there because it obviously has no fairway irrigation and that grass has always been acclimated to those types of droughts which breeds a really extended dormancy.

But I'll tell you one thing---you take a golf course whose agronomy has been excessively irrigated for years and you suddenly turn off the water and get it to look like those photos above and its grass will be stone cold DEAD!  

Joe Hancock

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2008, 11:32:19 AM »


But I'll tell you one thing---you take a golf course whose agronomy has been excessively irrigated for years and you suddenly turn off the water and get it to look like those photos above and its grass will be stone cold DEAD!  


Absolutely correct. To go dry like Sean pictured here requires long term conditioning...which is to say that irrigation has to be less the norm than we are used to in the US.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2008, 11:53:33 AM »
"Grass is tough stuff."


Adam:

It can be tough stuff but definitely not if you don't leave it alone to a considerable extent to do what it does best naturally.

And that's why I call a lot of modern American agronomy and American golf grass "The Emergency Ward".

It's been so completely over irrigated as to be about constantly half drowned and over administered to with every chemical imaginable that it's basically on constant life support like half dead people in many hospital EMs across the country.

When we land in the Emergency Ward we generally look like shit because we're half dead so isn't it ironic that so many of us think grass that's forced to live in our American Agronomic Emergency Ward looks healthy and looks great?

It sure is ironic to me.

 

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2008, 11:58:21 AM »
"Grass is tough stuff."


Adam:

It can be tough stuff but definitely not if you don't leave it alone to a considerable extent to do what it does best naturally.

And that's why I call a lot of modern American agronomy and American golf grass "The Emergency Ward".

It's been so completely over irrigated as to be about constantly half drowned and over administered to with every chemical imaginable that it's basically on constant life support like half dead people in many hospital EMs across the country.

When we land in the Emergency Ward we generally look like shit because we're half dead so isn't it ironic that so many of us think grass that's forced to live in our American Agronomic Emergency Ward looks healthy and looks great?

It sure is ironic to me.

 


This will be tough to top for top quote of the year....and it's only January. Of course, somewhere there is a bunch of other guys who hate what you just said, but still.....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2008, 12:34:12 PM »
Tom, Thanx for making the distinction.

A few years back, on a course where the status quo was to train the grass to be thristy, through excessive watering daily, the super thought he would lose a bunch of it when he had to go on every other day watering restrictions. He was wrong. The result was an enjoyable playable surface every other day.

As for whether Americans will accept this type of golf per Phillippe's question, the answer is...only when they are forced to, or, yes, for those that appreciate the difference between game mind and sport.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 12:35:54 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Moore II

Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2008, 01:02:58 PM »
I have played numerous courses in recent years that did not have fairway irrigation at all, and in the summer those clubs were quite enjoyable to play. The ball rolls forever and the lies are generally good. It really is bad that people think we have to have grass on 'life support' as was just said.

Bradley Anderson

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2008, 03:42:05 PM »
Mr. Paul,

Back in the 80's I was the greenkeeper of a small town club in central Illinois with unirrigated Merion bluegrass fairways. In the six years I was there I went through three really serious droughts with multiple days above 100 degrees. Those bluegrass fairways were just as toast as the fairways in these pictures, and I ran 40,000 rounds a yeara on them, mostly with carts. But they came right back as soon as it began raining again.

But the caveat is they were cut at 1 inch. Those older bluegrasses that can go dormant for prolonged periods will be quickly replaced by Poa annua and bent if you drop them below 1 inch. And I doubt that the players of today would ever go back to 1 inch fairway turf.

My last year at that club I installed automatic irrigation on those fairways and the following year they were decimated by fungal patch diseases.

On this subject, whenever I read or hear about unirrigated fairways, I never hear bluegrass mentioned, rather fescue is the grass that is thought to be the best choice. But blue grass seems better adapted to me because it has underground tillers (rhizomes) that can lie dormant for long periods of time, and regenerate new leaves when moisture returns. Also bluegrass fills in the divots better, and under moderate fertility management it does not produce the thatch problems that fescue seems to. That's my experience anyways.



TEPaul

Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2008, 04:10:33 PM »
Bradley:

How do you feel some of the more common or popular bents  would do on unirrigated fairways in drought conditions? How about rye? If you had fescue fairways instead of the blue grass I bet you couldn't have run all those carts on it.

Another question; How long do you think fairways can stay in dormancy and survive looking like those photos above?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 04:13:41 PM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2008, 04:31:47 PM »
I'm probably one of the few around here who remember playing on unirrigated Bermuda fw's in clay soil.

It redfines f&f. Back in the late 50's/early 60's it was like playing golf on an airport tarmack. The Bernuda went brown and the clay turned rock hard. (I'm not using "rock" metaphorically.)

Unless you have played under those conditions, you miss why Ross and others built topshot bunkers. You could top a ball badly and watch as it rolled out 225 yards or so. It just didn't stop rolling.

Most of the adults I played with back them were embarrassed by all that. As soon as they could lay pipes they did and as soon as they could turn on the water they did and it has stayed turned on ever since.

If you ever want to stop a conversation at a southern club, suggest they cut back on watering and let the Bermuda brown up.  

Bob


 

Bradley Anderson

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2008, 04:45:17 PM »
A lot of these new bents are bred for putting greens; for extreme low mowing heights and tremendous amounts of leaves per square inch etc. They do have huge root systems, and I spoke with a superintendent who never watered his A-series greens in 2007, except to rinse in fertilizers and topdressing once per week. What I can't tell you is how they would perform at a half inch fairway cut. I would be concerned about managing the thatch that they might develop on such big acrerages as is common on fairways.

Penneagle was originally bred for greens in the early 1980's. As a putting turf it was too weak, but at fairway height it performs the best of any "manicured" fairway turf out there, and it does not thatch up on you. I have allowed Penneagle to go completely dormant for over a week and it came back, but the key with that management stratedgy is to keep the carts off it. Any bentgrass, when it it dormant, will be damaged by traffic.

The other issue here is soils. If you have tight clay soils and you let them compelety dry out, they are very difficult to re-wet. I feel that a certain amount of water needs to be applied in the interest of water conservation. The presence of somee water in tight soils, helps to draw additional water in, but when there is no water, there is a period of runoff and waste of water before there is penetration.

Rye grass is not a tillering plant. Rye grass plants are generally originated from seed, whereas blue and bent, and some fescue plants may originate from a mother plant that has sent a tiller out to colonize an area. Rye's drought tolerance mechanism is limited to the depth of the root system. In Illinois most of the great ryegrass fairways that were in the central and lower regions of the state were hit hard by grey leaf spot. The cost of spraying to keep out the leaf spot doesn't seem to make rye any less expensive than the cost of maintaining bentgrass, and there is no overwhelming difference in rye's water requirements verse bent.

TEPaul

Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2008, 05:01:53 PM »
"What I can't tell you is how they would perform at a half inch fairway cut. I would be concerned about managing the thatch that they might develop on such big acrerages as is common on fairways."

Bradley:

Back when we were considering regrassing our greens to the "A" strain the word on the street was the As and Gs might need to be mowed too low for our slopes and contours if the grass was going to stay healthy.

That has turned out not to be the case at all with the As. What we sure do know about it is it loves dryness compared to what we used to have.

But just to show you how out of whack that original word on the street may've been, our former super who retired and is now in the Carolinas told me not long ago that a recent study (out of the Carolinas, I think) is saying the A strain looks like the ideal grass for fairways.

Now that I really can't understand because all the A strain collars around this area have suffered on all the courses that have them and I figured that had to be caused by the fact that they aren't able to mow them low enough.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 05:05:31 PM by TEPaul »

Bradley Anderson

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2008, 05:03:02 PM »
Let me hasten to add here:

There are so many factors with this issue of F&F fairways. Grass species is just one piece of the puzzle. Soil is a big factor is how water moves through the soil. And shade complicates everything because it encourages shallow rooted species to encroach on the deeper rooted species when you have a wet year. Irrigation systems are big part because the older systems distribute water so poorly, especially the single row systems.

In my opinion every superintendent out there is doing his best. I really don't know of any superintendents who overwater intentionally. Virtually every superintendent I know of is very serious about water conservation and providing the firmest conditions possible with their circumstances.

Bradley Anderson

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2008, 05:08:27 PM »
I spoke with a grow-in superintendent here last month who added Alpha to the collars of his A-strain greens for that very reason. The pivoting of mowers and rollers is hard on the A-series collars apparently.

Also collars have twice the bio mass of leaf tissue, and on my Pennlinks greens they dry out twice as fast for that reason, and they require hand watering. But that is just my experience with Pennlinks.

Mark Chaplin

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2008, 05:12:23 PM »
Sean,

I can see why it's got a regional qualifier, that's some good company in the area to share the rota with. Amazing how I thought the greens looked a little too watered and TE Paul thought the fairways dead. He clearly didn't watch the Open at Hoylake in 2006!

Chappers
Cave Nil Vino

TEPaul

Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2008, 05:13:20 PM »
"Let me hasten to add here:
There are so many factors with this issue of F&F fairways."


Bradley:

I know there are. I know it certainly isn't simple. This is why recently I'm into warning other clubs and such that if they are going to get into it, as obviously I hope they do because I love the playability so much, they just can't expect to do it quickly or simply if they have a course coming out of years of over irrigation and excessive chemical application and dependency.

If you persuade some club to do it and they think it's easy and something they can do almost immediately the chances of something going really wrong in the first few years are really good and then they're just going to come back at you and ask you why you didn't tell them the truth or the entire story.

Of course their super may try to tell them that but you know the drill that sometimes happens between supers and clubs and their green committees.

Most members of clubs and green committees don't know how to use their ears when they communicate with their supers and most supers don't know how to use their mouths enough particularly if they're young and haven't been on their jobs long.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 05:23:52 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2008, 05:36:09 PM »
"The pivoting of mowers and rollers is hard on the A-series collars apparently."

That's what I've been hearing---more than some problems with too high a cut on the As the turning on those collars  seems to be the primary reason they're suffering. So what next, do we have to hire another guy to drag a board around the collars so the mower can turn on it? I do know that works well. ;)

Jeff Loh

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Re:Longing for F&F
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2008, 05:42:27 PM »
AWESOME thread. this is why i joined GCA. keep it going as i am learning something with each new post!

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