[Mike Sweeney]

Just curious what people thought about Clemens last night on 60 Minutes

I have always thought that golfers would be nuts to take steroids because of finese shots around the green, but it is also a Power Game now.

He certainly danced around the lie detector test, which I perceived that he did take steriods and he is nuts to do this interview with his pending Congressional hearing.

[Mike Sweeney]

My understanding is that even the B-12 and the other legal drug he said was injected in him requires a licensed person to inject it, that it is against many state laws for personal trainers to inject that stuff.  

We inject Dusty with B-12 shots, obviously for other reasons. We get the B-12 from his Allergist but we inject it. This is standard procedure in the Autism world, and I can imagine it being standard in the Athletic world.

The reason I think this relates to golf architecture is that baseball and its records were shattered for a few seasons, and nobody tore down the Green Monster at Fenway.

[Anthony Butler]

Just curious what people thought about Clemens last night on 60 Minutes

I have always thought that golfers would be nuts to take steroids because of finese shots around the green, but it is also a Power Game now.

He certainly danced around the lie detector test, which I perceived that he did take steriods and he is nuts to do this interview with his pending Congressional hearing.

Would agree with your lie detector comment. Rafael Palmeiro will not make the Hall of Fame due to the fact he sat in front of Congress, lied, then failed a drug test. Sammy Sosa who used the 'my English is not so good' excuse, but has not yet failed a test still has a chance. Clemens is somewhere in between these two at the moment. Only exoneration from these charges can guarantee his entry. Going on 60 Minutes to deny these charges, then dissembling over the lie detector question makes no sense.

Having said that, when working out at the gym in Stanford, CT where the WWF guys train, I noticed the sleaziness of the whole 'trainer/supplier' scene. Guys like Clemens' accuser can be trusted about as far as you can throw them. One can speculate on his various motivations to throw Clemens under the bus... this article from the Boston Globe's Dan Shaughnessy is a good examination of  the issues:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2008/01/07/clemens_tale_hard_to_believe/

[John Kavanaugh]

Anthony,

Have you met Rick Flair?  Wooooooo!!!

[Doug Ralston]

I know many people consider the Hall of Fame to be some great deal. Why?

Ever hear the name 'Shoeless' Joe Jackson? He is not in the HOF, due to his only hitting .419 in the 1919 World Series [obviously throwing the Series  ].

Ever here of Pete Rose, most hits in history, yet evil gambler who can't get in.

I wonder if NOT being in isn't a route to more fame?

As for money, none of those steroid stars are exactly destitute, that I am aware of.

So who cares about the HOF? Maybe some, certainly not all.

Doug

PS: Bonds has yet to test positive also. If he wins in Court [Like Shoeless Joe did], is the HOF in his future?

[Michael Blake]

I was completely astounded that when I stumbled onto 60 minutes, they were interviewing Mushsarraf.

Every preview and promo over the past week for last night's program showcased only the Clemens interview. There wasn't a blip about a Musharraf interview which I think is much more newsworthy.

I find that irresponsible.


Sorry for the rant.  Now back to topic on the OT....

[corey miller]

I know I am in the minority but the steroid issue does not bother me very much.  As someone who has tried to play baseball, I am more offended by the media acting as if Dennis Kucinich on steroids hits 50 HR's.

[Mike Sweeney]

Belivablity rankings as in who did you believe the most to least:

1. mafia guy
2. Mushsarraf
3. Clemens

[mike_malone]

 I had a different take. He asked  for the person who supposedly sold him the roids to come forward. This sounds risky if you actually bought them. And I didn't hear a negative response to the lie detector test, just a wondering whether it is effective.
 BTW, my wife who has a great "crap detector" believed him.

[Anthony Butler]

Bringing this back to golf... is Clemens scheduled to make his regular Bob Hope Pro-am appearance? If so, he'd better pray the new PGA Tour drug policy doesn't extend to those playing in the pro-am.  

[Ted Kramer]

I don't care what he did or didn't do.
It simply doesn't matter to me.
Does everyone do their taxes 100% legit?
If not, isn't that cheating the honest?
Does everyone drive only at the posted speed limit?
Aren't you endangering the honest rule followers by speeding?

There are cultural norms in many groups that don't "follow the rules". To me, steroids and HGH were and ARE part of the cultural norms of the game and time.

I don't live in a fantasy world. For all of those who are "outraged" by the use of performance enhancing substances by professional athletes, I suggest an honest look in the mirror.  

-Ted

[JohnH]

I had a different take. He asked  for the person who supposedly sold him the roids to come forward. This sounds risky if you actually bought them. And I didn't hear a negative response to the lie detector test, just a wondering whether it is effective.

The "polygraph test" as it is correctly called, is the most subjective and unscientific thing there is, and wouldn't hold an ounce of water for me.  That's just my opinion of course.  I've seen so many botched attempts to accurately evaluate the method and results that it's maddening.  It is, however, a useful tool for the psychie....  It seemed to me to have an affect on Clemens when the topic arose.

[Mike Sweeney]

There are cultural norms in many groups that don't "follow the rules". To me, steroids and HGH were and ARE part of the cultural norms of the game and time.

Ted,

I understand what you are saying, but IF he did do it, I would prefer a reaction similar to Andy Petite. Marion Jones is going to jail and Clemens better be careful.

[Ted Kramer]

There are cultural norms in many groups that don't "follow the rules". To me, steroids and HGH were and ARE part of the cultural norms of the game and time.

Ted,

I understand what you are saying, but IF he did do it, I would prefer a reaction similar to Andy Petite. Marion Jones is going to jail and Clemens better be careful.

Agree on both points.

-Ted

[John Keenan]

Mike

On who do you believe my vote is the Mafia Guy first with Mushsarraf  and Clemens tied for second on the issue of honesty. In no way are the issues around Clemens as serious as Mushsarraf but the question was who do you believe..

As a Giant fan I have lived through the Bonds issues and have always thought that the reason no other players came out against Barry for cheating was that they were quite happy to allow him to be the poster child for what is a much larger issue.


John

[Michael Blake]

I don't care what he did or didn't do.

Me either.  




Sir Charles in a classic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRYeqGZRo9Q

[Ted Kramer]

Ted,

Agreed, none of us are without fault, but that should not prevent us from being outraged by certain issues.  Acceptance of "cultural norms" should not be a virtue we strive for all the time.  There are plenty of cultural norms I don't accept, and even though the tide against me is mighty it doesn't mean I should keep quiet.  Fortunately, my kids have denounced Clemens, Bonds, etc, in their minds they are cheaters.  As they get older in your scenario they will become more wise to the world and realize it is just a part of the cultural norm.  Once they make that decision then popping a few pills, getting a few injections maybe isn't so bad a thing and besides the other kids are doing it and their game is improving...who am I to tell them otherwise, hey I speed occasionally...I am no better than a pill popping, drug filled athlete...right?  Back off dad, you just don't understand...I need to do this....I have to do this or I'll sit on the bench...I'll be a nobody.  Ted, I think I'll take my chances looking like an outdated old fogie...if I find my kid's following the cultural norm they'll get their assess handed to them on a platter...that was the cultural norm where I grew up!!!

Kelly,

I don't disagree with you at all.
In raising my son, I don't plan on always letting cultural norms dictate my definition of right and wrong as I explain them to him. I'd tell my son that any and all of the athletes involved in the Mitchel report are cheaters.

As a child, I will speak to him and attempt to educate him in a relatively simple, black and white / right and wrong manner.
I'll tell him that it is wrong to lie . . .
Do I think that is always true . . .?
No I do not.
But I don't feel the need to discuss some of those exceptions with a child.
I'll tell him that Santa Claus brings his presents on Christmas. . .

But that doesn't change the fact that I, as a man, who does not live without sin, who has lied and cheated, will even begin to approach the level of outrage with regards to this issue that so many have reached.

-Ted

[Jerry Kluger]

Please excuse me for trying to make this too simple but to me, it is obvious what Clemens is trying to do.  He is concerned that someone else with more credibility, say another player, will say that they saw him being injected so he cannot simply deny the allegations.  Instead, he has to admit to the injections but claim that the substance was legal.  Palmiero tried this saying it was B-12 that he got from Tejada, problem is, Tejada has now been implicated.  

What is amazing about golf is how tough it is out there for professional golfers where one or two strokes can make a huge difference, yet we never hear about cheating.  I'm not talking about steroids, I'm talking about moving a ball, taking improper relief, etc.  Playing as threesomes on a Thursday with few, if any ,spectators can lead to a great deal of temptation when a player is in the trees away from his playing partners.  Guys are trying to make a living and keep their playing privileges - they don't have long term contracts and there are no guarantees in their sport.  It is a credit to the game that there isn't a need for someone to be assigned to each group to be certain that there is no fudging.

[tlavin]

Clemens deserves whatever scorn he is feeling from the public opprobrium that is being heaped upon him.  He has milked adoration from the public and from the media all the while knowing that he was bending the rules to remain in great shape to prolong his career.  He lost me when he negotiated a deal with the Yankees under which he didn't have to travel with the team unless he had a start the day the team arrived in another city.  He's in it for himself and now he can defend himself until the proverbial cows coming home.  Very few people are going to believe him.

As for the steroid/hgh issue in golf, you'd better believe that there are golfers who juice.  If Tiger were ever implicated, the pro golf game would be forever scarred.

[jeffwarne]

I don't care what he did or didn't do.
It simply doesn't matter to me.
Does everyone do their taxes 100% legit?
If not, isn't that cheating the honest?
Does everyone drive only at the posted speed limit?
Aren't you endangering the honest rule followers by speeding?

There are cultural norms in many groups that don't "follow the rules". To me, steroids and HGH were and ARE part of the cultural norms of the game and time.

I don't live in a fantasy world. For all of those who are "outraged" by the use of performance enhancing substances by professional athletes, I suggest an honest look in the mirror.  

-Ted

Many people intentionally or inadvertantly break the laws or "cultural norms" you outline .
They then pay the penalties prescribed if caught and convicted.
I've paid a speeding ticket.
Many tax cheats go to prison.
An acquaintance of mine went to prison for selling a culturally accepted substance.

It's a very slippery slope when you use when you suggest we should live and judge others by cultural norms outside of stated laws.

Clemons has been accused but not convicted.
If he is convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, I've got no problem seeing appropriate penalties for him and all the other cheaters.
And yes I do care, the same as if he might care if he saw me win a golf tournament under the influence of a performing enhancing drug (although in my case it would have to be a miracle enhancing drug )

[henrye]

How far will sport doping take us?  From a golf perspective, it strikes me that the top players make more use of psychologists or psychiatrists than orthopaedics type specialists.  What type of psychological medications are the pros on?  Does it help their play (give them an advantage)?  Do they have a psychological condition that might warrant its use?  What drugs constitute cheating, and/or what drugs should?

Mike Weir might be better off popping a few Valiums prior to a Sunday finish than any kind of anabolic steroid program?

[Jay Flemma]

I didn't believe him.  He shook his head when he was making some critical denials and had other body language that was evasive.  I watched him carefully listening to what he said and how his body moved while he said it.

At times, responded to a question with a question or he went off on a tangent and didn't answer.  Just as an example, I didn't buy "Andy's situation and mine are totally different."  They are actually identical.

He filed a law suit this morning against MacNamee.  You watch.  He'll reply to Congress with a letter saying he'd like to come, but his lawsuit is filed and he doesn't want to jeopardize the lawsuit.  That's "the appropriate time and appropriate manner" he spoke about when the allegations broke and he'll both hide behind the lawsuit to congress and his apologists can say "he's being consistent" with what he said all along.

Congress will then send out the supboena and he'll be as infamous as mcguire.  A nice pair of bookends they'll make:  "I'm not here to talk about the past" on one side and "I'd like to talk to you, but my lawyer says I have to not say anything that could jeopardize my lawsuit" on the other, neatly avoiding all the nasty implications involved in taking the fifth officially.  What's congress going to do?  Thriow him in jail for contempt?  That would make him a martyr, the last thing they want.  They did nothing to McGuire, Clamens is banking they'll do the same in his case, no matter how many times they say to him "Your lawsuit doen't insulate you from answering our Qs."  He'll have a fig leaf of an excuse, and he'll avoid perjury.  He'll bleed Macnamee dry of every cent he owns in the lawsuit, avenging his betrayal that way.  He'll lose ultimately, but he'll have gotten his pound of flesh and the two of them will see each other in hell and they can continue the argument there.

It's the bonfire of the vanities, baseball style.

Here's my guess...he's getting fine advice...the best a rich man can get.  I think he's not listening.

[Ted Kramer]

I don't care what he did or didn't do.
It simply doesn't matter to me.
Does everyone do their taxes 100% legit?
If not, isn't that cheating the honest?
Does everyone drive only at the posted speed limit?
Aren't you endangering the honest rule followers by speeding?

There are cultural norms in many groups that don't "follow the rules". To me, steroids and HGH were and ARE part of the cultural norms of the game and time.

I don't live in a fantasy world. For all of those who are "outraged" by the use of performance enhancing substances by professional athletes, I suggest an honest look in the mirror.  

-Ted

Many people intentionally or inadvertantly break the laws or "cultural norms" you outline .
They then pay the penalties prescribed if caught and convicted.
I've paid a speeding ticket.
Many tax cheats go to prison.
An acquaintance of mine went to prison for selling a culturally accepted substance.

It's a very slippery slope when you use when you suggest we should live and judge others by cultural norms outside of stated laws.

Clemons has been accused but not convicted.
If he is convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, I've got no problem seeing appropriate penalties for him and all the other cheaters.
And yes I do care, the same as if he might care if he saw me win a golf tournament under the influence of a performing enhancing drug (although in my case it would have to be a miracle enhancing drug )

Again, I don't disagree. If convicted he should pay. I'm just not emotionally invested one way or the other. . . It doesn't matter to me.

-Ted

[John Kirk]

"It's a very slippery slope when you use when you suggest we should live and judge others by cultural norms outside of stated laws."

I'll take the other side of this argument.

The difference between tax evaders and steroid users from people who break speed laws in their cars is that the tax cheats and drug users benefit financially, in this case, greatly.  Roger Clemens made $15-20 million last year at the age of 45, for less than a full season of baseball.

I have no tolerance for people who lie to make money.  If that's the cultural norm, then a change is in order.  My belief is there's a lot of lying going on in the name of greed.  And it's against the law.

The problem with baseball, and probably most other major sports, is that illegal drug use is pervasive and necessary to compete.  What do you think...50-75% of major leaguers using?  And it's naive to believe that golfers are immune.  There's a lot of money at stake.

[jeffwarne]

John,
So if you find out 50-75% of taxpayers cheat, will you also?

Every player convicted of cheating should have the rules applied to them, whatever they are. If 100% cheated and the rules say they're banned, so what?

If steroid use is requiered for 46 year old men to pitch,perhaps they should retire?

Again,I'm willing to believe Clemens the benefit of the doubt as innocent until he is proven otherwise.

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