[Forrest Richardson]

I have seen few, if any. What have you noticed in golf design that you would consider a breakthrough design?

[Tom_Doak]

Forrest:

What do you define as a breakthrough?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Would Chambers qualify as a very different design for the RT Jones II group?

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes, Chambers is a great triumph for RTJ. I think it does qualify as a breakthrough for public access, non-resort golf.

Tom D. — Something really new. Not seen recently, or ever.

[Jordan Wall]

Tom D. — Something really new. Not seen recently, or ever.

Sebonack?

[paul cowley]

Doaks's "uni-tees"....Ballyneal.

[Bill_McBride]

I haven't been there to see it, but I love the idea of no fixed tees at Ballyneal, and the winner of the previous hole says, "Tee it up here!"

That's the most unusual and interesting thing I've heard of in years.  It certainly wouldn't work at your typical CCFAD.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Not much, uh? Is that disappointing to anyone here? Should golf architecture produce more interesting, out-of-the-box thinking? It seems we spend an awful lot of time reintroducing past ideas, considering previous design approaches and, ultimately, reinventing the past in very subtle ways.

[Joel_Stewart]

Not much, uh? Is that disappointing to anyone here? Should golf architecture produce more interesting, out-of-the-box thinking? It seems we spend an awful lot of time reintroducing past ideas, considering previous design approaches and, ultimately, reinventing the past in very subtle ways.

This isn't the best year to ask the question.  In this economy, I'm not sure any architect is going to take a chance on any project.

For 2007, Chambers Bay seems like its head and shoulders above anything else out there for a public golf course.  Even though its RTJ2, it helps the cause of anti Fazio over manicured golf courses, is unique and fun to play.

[Forrest Richardson]

On the other hand, taking a chance should not be linked to an economy. Often it is the best ideas and slightly risky propositions that lead to be best return and the greatest marketability.

[Tom_Doak]

Forrest:

Usually breakthroughs are the result of new people entering the fray, rather than old people suddenly developing new concepts.  I suspect that the current business climate is not especially friendly to new people entering the business right now, so we're less likely to see something really new.

The flip side is that if we did see something new (or do it ourselves), it would attract a great deal more attention now than it would have five years ago.

[Forrest Richardson]

Good points. What about A.W. — seems his best ideas, at least those written about, were not at the onset, but later on.

[Brian Phillips]

The tee complexes at The Castle course.  I have seen it before but never as well done as the team has done there.

[Tom_Doak]

Do you really think Tillinghast's later work was much better?  More refined, perhaps, but his first three significant courses were Shawnee, Somerset Hills and SFGC, which are all pretty darned good.

I'm reading a good book right now, The Black Swan, where the author ruminates about (among other things) how artists tend to become too safe over time and to start listening to their market instead of to their inner voice.  Probably a good thing for me to read.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - challenge paradigms

(besides, it's more fun!)

[PThomas]

I haven't been there to see it, but I love the idea of no fixed tees at Ballyneal, and the winner of the previous hole says, "Tee it up here!"

That's the most unusual and interesting thing I've heard of in years.  It certainly wouldn't work at your typical CCFAD.  

Ace - that's the way it is at The Dunes CLub in MI

[Dan Herrmann]

Hanse built a "no teeing ground" first hole at French Creek in '03.  He mentioned that they liked the concept so much they've incorporated it elsewhere.

I think it's a great idea, and hope to see its use increase.

[Ash Towe]

I am hopefully going to play at The Kinloch Club near Lake Taupo, in New Zealand in January.  From the photos seen so far this does not look like a typical Nicklaus design, especially the bunkering.
We will see.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Forest
I am going to go out of my way to see Chambers Bay in person next year. I think that the shaping of the faux dunes, based upon the photos I've seen is fantastic - leaving almost Van Gogh brush strokes. I'm also intrigued to see how it grows in, but I can't do that next year.

[Garland Bayley]

I'm not as experienced as some here, but the Chambers Bay 12th, especially the green, was something new to me. You might be able to drive it onto the green,  but that is not guarantee you are going to get a 3, or a 4 for that matter.

[Ryan Farrow]

Hanse built a "no teeing ground" first hole at French Creek in '03.  He mentioned that they liked the concept so much they've incorporated it elsewhere.

I think it's a great idea, and hope to see its use increase.

Dan what does "no teeing ground" mean.



I want to know if anyone has completely abandoned the tee pad thing and has completely extended the fairway to the tees. I am thinking how great it would be for the maintenance crew to forget about having to mow tees in the morning and just be able to treat the tees like fairway.

[Kyle Harris]

Hanse built a "no teeing ground" first hole at French Creek in '03.  He mentioned that they liked the concept so much they've incorporated it elsewhere.

I think it's a great idea, and hope to see its use increase.

Dan what does "no teeing ground" mean.



I want to know if anyone has completely abandoned the tee pad thing and has completely extended the fairway to the tees. I am thinking how great it would be for the maintenance crew to forget about having to mow tees in the morning and just be able to treat the tees like fairway.

I would cry tears of warm mirth to work at that course.

And Ryan would get less picture messages of my wonderful triplex striping jobs. I hate striping, but am proud of my work.

[Tom_Doak]

The "no teeing ground" thing is not really an innovation.

Mike Keiser has had that rule in effect at The Dunes Club from its inception -- that is one of the reasons I thought that I would like to work with him someday, because it was a very open-minded idea.

When we built The Sheep Ranch, we did not build any tees at all, because they would have gotten in the way of approaching the adjacent green from some possible angle of attack.  (We DID level off a few small spots in different places around the green.)  However, I wouldn't take credit for that either -- that's how golf was played at its very origin.

[Forrest Richardson]

Please let me know (Tom D.) how you enjoyed The Black Swan. I have heard of it and it remains on a list, but not read yet. I am in the middle of Travels with Charley (Steinbeck) and Joe Garagiola's new book, Just Play Ball.

I am hardly qualified to know about A.W.'s work as I have seen only a fraction of his courses. I was speaking to his writing and ideas, which always seem very interesting — even if not built or still in effect.

[Ryan Farrow]

I am hardly qualified to know about A.W.'s work as I have seen only a fraction of his courses. I was speaking to his writing and ideas, which always seem very interesting — even if not built or still in effect.

Forrest, seems like he would fit in quite well with the majority of todays modern architects, whole lot of talk and not a lot of action.

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