[paul cowley]

....can only exist for the masses to the extent that it can be integrated as an easy part of their lifestyle.

 

[Peter Pallotta]

Paul -
I've been thinking about this for quite a while. I read Tom's thread on business models with interest, and started a thread on the possible value of 'impermanence'.

It's hard not to argue that, for there to be a bright future, golf courses need to meet people where they are, i.e. where they live, what they need/want, what they can afford (or are willing to give) in time and money and psychic energy.

I don't really like writing that -- I understand fully the desire to build/create something special and to aspire to greatness, and I'm affected by questions about the relationship between time and quality. I think artists can and should lead, even if just a little.

But maybe I've been all wrong.  Maybe golf courses should be expected to serve faithfully and well only for a season (figuratively speaking) before becoming parks or new subdivisions; maybe that would change (i.e. create a better business model for) the way they're conceived, built, maintained, and used/appreciated

I wonder if the desire to build the "great" golf course (from both noble and practical motives) makes impossible the simplicity and frugality necessary to have golf available to the masses.

I participate on this site to try to figure out if some 'golden mean' is possible, i.e. the quiet and low-to-the-ground elegance of a fine golf course that also serves the masses (e.g. me) well, at least for a time.  

Peter

[Gary Daughters]

Most of us are too damn busy.

Maybe golf doesn't make it, but for the few.

[RJ_Daley]

Peter, I just posted a similar sentiment on the other thread, having not at first seeing this one.  

I think you have a plausible perspective.  The need for every golf developer/dreamer and schemer to hit the home run, build another Bandon Resorts, etc., is not realistic if the market at the low end doesn't grow to feed the high end, ultimately.  

Right now the high end market course development is still there for the isolated individual examples like Bandon, Kohler, etc.  But, I truly believe that the market that supports that higher end will peter out (pardon the expression   )  with that sector either aging, or economically slipping out.  Thus, the market must be fed from the bottom, the recreational golfer, who can afford to play multiple times a year on modest tracks to hone their game and tastes for something more exquisite in design and challenge.  

Right now, I think there are too many swells who may be a part of a fleeting and temporary class who are 18handi, non-serious golfers, there at these high end resorts for the prestige more than golf accumen.  But, let the gravy train go off the track, and I think the modest end of affordable golf will be the more likely survivor.  

The other part about permanancy might be more a consideration for highest best use of land as we go forward and land gets more scarce.  Plenty of urban small mom and pops will continue to go the way of conversion to higher uses, it seems to me.  That creates a greater need for modest course development in the outlying areas, were affordable and market growing golf can still occur.    

[Mike_Cirba]

In many ways, it seems to me that we've made the golden goose so fat and inflexible that we've killed her.

I think I realized that for the first time when I played Whistling Straits and between caddie and green fee it cost me more than my winter-long electric bill.

I'm a golf fanatic and would pay almost anything to play any great course one time, but I have to say simply that I've played a zillion $35 golf courses that are at least half as good as the $350 ones, and that math ain't going to work long-term.

[Kirk Gill]

The future would be brighter for golf if public courses offered a discount rate for young golfers.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Remember all those great predictions that automation would have us all working about half the time and enjoying the rest with pass times like golf?  If that could really come true, golf would have to have a bright future.

In some ways, with seniors healthier than ever, golf still does.

And face it, its been going strong since 1400 or so. Pretty soon, we may all believe this old game has some legs!  Somehow, its hard for me to believe we work more than our forefathers did, and somehow, they managed to squeeze quality golf time in.  And, they carried their flasks, not needing cart girls!  

[Doug Siebert]

Right now the dollar is weak so American golf is cheaper for foreign visitors and UK golf is more expensive for Americans.

If that changes in a few years when the US credit crunch is behind us then there will suddenly be fewer golfers coming to the US from overseas and more of our golfers will be visiting the UK instead of places like Bandon.

So I think right now might be the best market for the high dollar pay to play destinations like Keiser's and Kohler's for the next decade.  If more of them get built, it only dilutes the market and they better be superior to what else is out there if they hope to make it.

The lowest ones on the totem pole will get sold for pennies on the dollar, either to someone who will make a lot of money on them down the road, or be turned private.

There will always be a market for mid priced regional destinations I think, but I think ego drives some of these guys to want to create national or world destinations, rather than just drawing people from in-state and two or three of the surrounding states.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I was reading a poll from 2004 (Harris, I believe) that said the median number of hours per week that Americans had for leisure time was 19 per week. The number of hours per week they worked, including housework and studying, was 50.

When the folks were asked to name two or three of their favorite leisure activities golf was mentioned 4% of the time, down from a high of 8% in 1997.
Number 1 on the list in 2004 was reading, at 35%. It had declined from 31% in 2000 to 24% in 2003, but surged in '04.
Watching TV was #2 and it was fairly constant around 20/21%, then dropped off in '02 and '03, but came back to 21% in '04.
Spending time w/the family and kids was #3. From '95 to '02 this stayed around 12%, but rose to 17% in '03 and then to 20% in '04.    
Some other activities mirroring golf's 4%: church/church activities, travelling, sleeping, and socializing.
Some other activities at the bottom, or 1%: bowling, running, tennis, horseback riding.

This leads me to believe that golf's bright future lies in bringing the wife and kids to the course, renting a couple of carts w/ built in TVs and bookcases, and playing nine holes so you don't all blow your 19 hours of leisure time in one place.    

 

[Michael_Stachowicz]

....can only exist for the masses to the extent that it can be integrated as an easy part of their lifestyle.

 

Not having been there, but does the original St. Andrews model apply to this statement?  How it is integrated right into the town and accessible to pedestrians.

I have often thought I would love to build and own a nine hole course abutting a bustling town center.  The clubhouse would be a good watering hole for townies and the golf course would abut shops and businesses.  People walking, jogging and park type functions would take place around the course.  The goal is to really integrate the course with everyday town life.

This means the homerun will not necessarily be the design due to land restrictions (I am already being limiting by saying this has to be around a town center never mind the expense), this goes to the Peter's comment about the overriding desire in golf is to build the next great course.  The homerun will be the contribution to the communities success.

[paul cowley]

I think Michaels, Peters, RJ's et al...are all very right on.

I ponder how to get there, and in doing so, will I be putting myself out of a job?....maybe, but moving on to something else is not always a bad thing.

The people [developers] who are taking the risk don't generally have the vision, mainly because there is no tried and true profit model....and thus no incentive.

Communities can be outright bunglers because they lack the need to make a profit.

I gotta go to work...later...have a nice day

[RichMacafee]

This leads me to believe that golf's bright future lies in bringing the wife and kids to the course, renting a couple of carts w/ built in TVs and bookcases, and playing nine holes so you don't all blow your 19 hours of leisure time in one place.    

And if one of those books is the bible, you might squeeze 12 holes in  

9 hole games of golf are going to take over the game for many club and social players, and soon. It is inevitable. Once the stigma of 'not playing 18' is overcome, which is starting to happen, 9 holes will very soon be a game of golf for over 50% of people who play the game.

Handicapping systems are being adjusted to recognise this, and clubs are beginning to incorporate it into their programs with great success.

Personally, I don't like it. A game of golf is 18 holes minimum IMO, but reality says it will happen.

What it means for golf courses and course design is an interesting topic

 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Back when people in the biz were talking about building junior courses for kids access I had a different idea - have local driving ranges and golf courses that are emtpy on weekday mornings offer their facilities to local day care outlets.

If the kids have fun at golf, and get a bit of excersise, while not taking up anything but unused capacity, that would go a long way to integrating golf into modern family life, even if it sounds a little backwards from traditions.  How great would it be for a kid to come home and ask Dad to go out and golf with him?

[John Kavanaugh]

How great would it be for a kid to come home and ask Dad to go out and golf with him?

Not as great as a Dad asking the kid to go out and golf.  The reality of the situation is that after all the other kid activities the modern dad has to participate in, giving up his weekend morning golf game is a bit much.  Kids need to play golf with kids during the week when Dad is at work.  btw....What kind of Dad gets home before their kid?

[Tom Roewer]

There was an interesting article in Golf Inc. recently that addressed what they call as the "core golfers".  Those players with the same foursome, same time each weekend morning.  These patrons weren't looking for discount fares, bought from the bev cart and shop, and possibly the restaurant.  Recently their tee time became avilable to someone else.  They were gone.  When looking at numbers, the number of golfers remained the same through this, however these "core golfers" were replaced by juniors and female golfers.  It was pointed out that this(at least for a time period) results in loss of income for the facility while having the same number of rounds.  

[John Kavanaugh]

There was an interesting article in Golf Inc. recently that addressed what they call as the "core golfers".  Those players with the same foursome, same time each weekend morning.  These patrons weren't looking for discount fares, bought from the bev cart and shop, and possibly the restaurant.  Recently their tee time became avilable to someone else.  They were gone.  When looking at numbers, the number of golfers remained the same through this, however these "core golfers" were replaced by juniors and female golfers.  It was pointed out that this(at least for a time period) results in loss of income for the facility while having the same number of rounds.  

What a great point.  Women and children do not spend as much a men given the same tee slots.  Is this correct because it sure seems so, even though I never get past the mens lounge so I have no idea how many Cosmopolitans and Kitty Cocktails are being sold in the outer rooms.

[Rich Goodale]

I think the ideal golf club of the future would have only one entrance to and exit from the men's grill, which would go through the ladies' shabeen and then the nursery/playroom.  The door to the playroom would always be open, so the young children could be taught new words listening to Daddy and his friends comment on the football game on TV and also social skills listening to Mom and her friends talking about Daddy and what he did and didn't do last night after the kiddies had gone to bed.

As we all know, it takes a village and a golf club to raise a child......

[tlavin]

I think the ideal golf club of the future would have only one entrance to and exit from the men's grill, which would go through the ladies' shabeen and then the nursery/playroom.  The door to the playroom would always be open, so the young children could be taught new words listening to Daddy and his friends comment on the football game on TV and also social skills listening to Mom and her friends talking about Daddy and what he did and didn't do last night after the kiddies had gone to bed.

As we all know, it takes a village and a golf club to raise a child......

Man, I'd shoot myself if this were the case.  Or maybe consider tennis, which would really be dehumanizing.

[Jerry Kluger]

Paul: Today's lifestyle of the average family which might consider golf has nothing to do with golf.  The fact is in today's social environment every child has a path to follow and it rarely includes golf.  My boys are now 11 and 14, and if I hadn't insisted on their playing golf, or at least going to the driving range, golf would never have been included in their lives.  Instead, they would've limited their activities to what nearly every other kid does today - soccer, baseball, basketball, etc.  It is a social event for the kids and the parents and it is not a sporting event.  Still, the parents somehow think it is worthwhile for the 12 kids on the baseball field to play the stupid game even though 3/4 have no idea of what's going on nor any interest in what's going on.  Same thing with soccer and basketball - most of them have no interest in being there and have no idea as to how to play the game.

The lifestyle and relationships would dramatically improve if the parents spent some time, one on one, going to the driving range or playing golf.  Tennis is also something where they can play with the kids and enjoy each other's company.  Instead, they are playing sports, if you want to call it that, where the parents feel like they are meeting their parental obligations as well as their social interactions.  It's all a charade because the parents are too busy working and the kids are being pressured to succeed. Ask any parent when was the last time they spent 4 uninterrupted hours with their kids where there was no agenda other than to enjoy each other.  

[Kirk Gill]

I agree with Jerry's comments. I find the time I spend playing golf with my children to be hours of uninterrupted time that is of incredible value to me, and the kids love it too. I remember a recent thread started by Jordan Wall where he talked about missing the ability to golf with his dad, and it renewed my dedication to getting out as much as possible with my own children this coming summer and into the future.

But a full season of soccer costs about the same as two rounds of golf in my area. This is because there are no older municipal courses in the area, just fairly new daily fee courses (as well as private clubs) that are not cheap and which do not provide any family discount or youth discounts. We do what we can, with less-frequent play, trips to the range instead of the course (although there's no doubt which they prefer, and 8 bucks a bucket isn't cheap, either), and nine-hole play. If the future of golf is to appeal exclusively to the well-heeled, then the plan is working, despite our attempts to foil it. I don't mean to seem like I'm blaming anyone, because I'm not. It's just reality. This plays into the architectural discussion regarding business models, etc. Designers apparently don't want to attach their names to benign designs appropriate for the beginning golfer, and golfers apparently don't want to play them, even though their game might be best suited to that type of venue. And this type of course is apparently a crap business. That said, I'd still love it if there was one of them in my neck of the woods. Some private clubs, like one in my area, have a par-3 course for beginner play. Perhaps someday...

I can relate, however, to those who would rather not have their valuable time on the golf course inundated with kids running around. When I'm at the course with my children, I'm pretty strict about their behaviour and decorum.

[John Kavanaugh]

Kirk,

Does your area have a first tee program?  I have not seen a city in America that does not have affordable junior memberships available either through the city or at the local private.  Have you looked?  Would you like me to find something for you?

[John Kavanaugh]

Kirk,

Speak of the Devil...There is a Kavanaugh course near your home that will be hosting the 2008 US Publinx that has $9 rates for juniors.  You don't have to play, as I am sure they will let you caddie.  A link: http://tinyurl.com/37bsfd  Nine holes is always enough with a kid in tow.

[Ian Andrew]

The game will not grow without minorities being encouraged to take up the game. The game is currently stagnating largely due to the lack of interest from younger people - the Tiger effect had an impact - and now it has passed. For example in Canada the amount of young males coming to the game has actually declined in this decade (IPSOS Reid Study). Fortunately young women is the largest growth area currenly but the participation rate is tiny.

The main reason is the economics of the game makes participation tough particularly in urban areas. This also is true of hockey which is having a tougher time bringing in new players. Soccer on the other hand is experiencing unprecedented growth. The secondary reason soccer is on a massive rise is the tradition of playing soccer with recent immigrants (like me). Soccer is already a passion, the costs are minimal, and it is a sport that is completely inclusive.

Golf is not inclusive yet – it’s trying – but it has been slow to embrace the fact that society is becoming more integrated. Since golf is so slow to follow the changes in society – golf will lag in growth until change comes. Whether you believe it or not – the next growth cycle to the game will require more participation from the immigrants, minorities or areas where the game is not yet part of the social fabric. Otherwise we will take quite a few years to digest this Golden Age, before another building cycle will begin.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian,

If there is a sport that needs to integrate minorities better than golf, its hockey!  I look forward to the day when kids of all colors from new hockey hotbeds like Dallas work their way into the NHL.  

It sure needs the influx of talent, especially at 30 teams and even moreso if that Euro Super League announced last week gets off the ground, and takes back the last influx of players to keep the NHL even as popular as it is, which isn't too much .

I think all activities suffer from the sheer amount of other activities and the realization that kids (and moms, dads) can only do so many.  Even TV has suffered declining ratings.

[Rich Goodale]

I think the ideal golf club of the future would have only one entrance to and exit from the men's grill, which would go through the ladies' shabeen and then the nursery/playroom.  The door to the playroom would always be open, so the young children could be taught new words listening to Daddy and his friends comment on the football game on TV and also social skills listening to Mom and her friends talking about Daddy and what he did and didn't do last night after the kiddies had gone to bed.

As we all know, it takes a village and a golf club to raise a child......

Man, I'd shoot myself if this were the case.  Or maybe consider tennis, which would really be dehumanizing.

Terry

Nothing is as dehumanizing as bad golf. IMHO.  If you play badly at tennis you lose 6-0, 6-0 in 30 minutes and have the whole rest of the day to do other things, even play golf!  If you play badly at golf, you shoot in 3 figures, spend 5.5 hours looking for your balls and those of your fellow competitors, and only have enough time for a quick beer before you get on your Gulfstream and/or Buick to head home.  In fact, even if you play well at golf, you still have to look for your fellow competitors balls, and still are out there for 5 hours+.

Rich

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