[David Stamm]

I've never played in the UK or Ireland, but Ed Tilly's thread prompted me to ask a question. I've heard from quite a few people that they thought Waterville was not as good as they had expected. What does the treehouse say?

[Tom_Doak]

David:

It has never been rated super-high.  It always just missed out on the GOLF Magazine top 100 in the world, probably because there were a couple of real clunker holes.

I have not seen the course since Tom Fazio did his work but I do understand that the clunker holes have been taken apart and put back together much better.

[Mike Leveille]

Tom's description of the Fazio work is accurate.  He managed to improve many of the holes on the formerly bland front nine, giving them a little more of a links golf feel.  This is especially true of the first two holes.  Though he naturally had much less work to do on the back nine, he did a nice job on 16, which was always a bit of an awkward hole in the old days.  I am not sure exactly what he did on 16 (I believe he replaced the fairway bunkers lining the right side with mounds and may have reduced the grade of the hill on the second shot), but in my opinion the overall result is a better golf hole. The only negative, in my opinion, was the re-do of the par three 4th hole, which used to be one of the best holes on the front nine.  I recall it as a 170 yard hole with the green tucked between two dunes.  It seems that they shortened the hole a few yards, possibly moving the green forward and definitely resulting in less dunes around the green.  I'd be curious if anyone knows why they changed the 4th.

[jeffwarne]

David,
Whether or not it's overrated has everything to do with how you rate it in the first place,

I spent a month there with a member of Waterville who grew up in the town in 1991. Played it probably 20-25 times(often 36 a day).
 I also played Dooks (which he and his friends didn't think much of-I loved it) Killarney(both courses),Tralee, Ballybunion(both courses), Carlow, Kilkenny, Little Island and Mt. Juliet.
I also played it again in 1992 and 1997.

Waterville was very good,but it did have a few bland LONG meadowy holes and odd water hazard on a par 3.
It's been redone by Tommy O'Fazio (no doubt in an old fashioned Irish tradition ) The course always had a slight American feel to feel to me as compared to Ballybunion and Dooks.
What stuck out at me the most was its' BIGNESS at the time.
It was plenty long from the whites, and even though the blues were an option, I never played more than a couple holes off of them. It was quite wet that summer and the ball and drivers then weren't nearly as hot.

The pro Liam Higgins is a great guy, larger than life,great storyteller,ladies man ,long hitter-very colorful and friendly.
His son may be the pro now.
The town is also a lot of fun, but everything in Ireland has changed a lot since prosperity has struck. Not quite as friendly, much more expensive, much more crowded and touristy.

All in all I'm sure it's still quite good, I just have a hard time getting excited about a Tom Fazio course across the pond when there is so much great  stuff in England, Wales, Scotland and the rest of Ireland (particularly the northwest), which isn't overrun by tourism.

[kconway]

I played there in the summer 3 years ago and found it very overrated:

1)  Opening/front time were uninspired
2) Conditioning of the fairways when I played was very poor
3) I found it lack a core charachter...all of the carts running around and a lack of a true Irish Club feel were detractions

On the other hand, it is in stunning setting and the closing holes are great

[Jonathan Cummings]

Are you shitten me???  Waterville, before the rework, was an example of pure quality, character and strength.  As TD says, it may perennially rank a notch below the world's top 100 but Waterville is still firmly planted in the top half dozen of Irish courses.  Like Lahinch's modern rework, Waterville only got better with Fazio's input.  Add to this the new and also near great Skellig Bay right next door and this is a 'must see' for first-time and many-time visitors.  JC  

[Will E]

David,
Waterville is very underrated. The setting is incredible and adds to the experience. I'll agree with most of Jeff's comments, though I liked the strange water feature on the par 3 and really enjoyed the long holes. In a way I consider it the Shinnecock of Ireland, a very stern and objective examination of your game. It's a difficult course and I would expect those that don't like it probably consider it too difficult. I'd be hard pressed to consider it less of a course than Ballybunion and I must have missed the clunker holes.

[Bob_Huntley]

I last played Waterville in 1984 and thought it the toughest test in Ireland.

I know not what changes have been made since but for anyone to call some of the holes bland, you must have a game with which I an unfamiliar.

Bob

[Ash Towe]

A friend of mine, a golf professional and a very good player takes tour groups to Ireland every year.  He rates Waterville extremely highly.  He always talks about the challenge and says the Fazio changes have improved the course markedly.  He does hit the ball a long way which may affect the way he looks at the course as compared to "normal players".
It is a track I would like to play when I hopefully get to Ireland.

[cary lichtenstein]

I was not impressed with Waterville.

[Bob_Huntley]

I was not impressed with Waterville.

Cary,

Why?

Bob

[Joel_Stewart]

Wasn't this Payne Stewarts and Mark O'Mearas favorite course in Ireland?

[Tom_Doak]

Well, Jonathan has it overrated, anyway.

[J_ Crisham]

Waterville is a good course but a great course is a stretch .The par 3 9th(?) has the only swamp I've ever seen on a links style course. The front 9 is rather boring with little or no elevation change. I also remember 16 being quirky. Greens were not real imaginative- rather flatish. The other gripes are more personal -I usually stay in Killarney and the drive is a bitch on the coastal road.I enjoy playing in wind but the times I've played here the wind was gale force. Given the fact htat we have just received 6 inches of snow here in IL I would love to play Waterville!

[jeffwarne]

I'd say Waterville is underrated on GCA.com , and overrated by the average Wall Sreeter on an Irish tour.

So whatever it's place in the world is,,,, is just aboout right.

Great town,great setting, great drive in, very good golf course.
#16 ,the par 4 referenced here several times and evidently changed recently, was a 390 par 4 that the Head Pro Liam Higgins aced.

[Tom_Doak]

Jack:

The par-3 you remember was the seventh hole, and that one has been eliminated by Fazio's redesign.  It was an atrocious hole and I always told the ownership there was no way the course would crack the top 100 in the world with a hole like that ... all carry over a small man-made pond to a medium-sized green with gnarly mounds behind it, in a ferociously windy place.

[Tim Rooney]

Tom,agree most emphatically.I made the only greenie with a nutted #3 Iron into a Hellish Wind!

[Bill Gayne]

Waterville is a very stern test of golf. Although my game is not suited for Waterville it is a very good golf course especially for the better player. Waterville and Portrush provide the toughest driving examination of all the courses in Ireland.

I think Waterville suffers largely because of perception. Geographically it's often book end by play at Ballybunion and Old Head. It lacks the spectacular beauty of Old Head but it has much greater substance as a golf course. Waterville doesn't weave in and out of the huge dunes that Ballybunion has.

I haven't been there since Fazio revised the course.

[Brian Phillips]

I last played Waterville in 1984 and thought it the toughest test in Ireland.

I know not what changes have been made since but for anyone to call some of the holes bland, you must have a game with which I an unfamiliar.

Bob

Bob,

I am a little surprised by that.  Portmarnock is the toughest I have played in Ireland and found Waterville to be very wide in comparison.

I don't think Waterville is underrated or overrated but placed correctly in the rankings.  Just outside or around the top 100.

The work that Fazio has done impressed me and enjoyed the holes they have changed.

Brian

[Paul_Turner]

The Waterville I knew (pre Fazio) lacked the small scale undulations, around and within the greens,  that make links golf great.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Well, call me overrating but my personal Irish list would put the fab 4 and Lahinch as the only 5 courses ranked above Waterville.  BTW - I agree completely that the deleted par 3 7th was as odd as the 18th at European Club.  The course is much better without it.  JC

[Doug Siebert]

I was not a fan of Waterville after my first visit (pre-Fazio)  I went back in 2004 and found it much improved.  It isn't in the same class as Ballybunion or Lahinch to be sure (but I consider Ballybunion my world-wide #1 and Lahinch isn't far behind)  But I'd say it is firmly in the second tier with Tralee and Old Head.

[J_ Crisham]

I was not a fan of Waterville after my first visit (pre-Fazio)  I went back in 2004 and found it much improved.  It isn't in the same class as Ballybunion or Lahinch to be sure (but I consider Ballybunion my world-wide #1 and Lahinch isn't far behind)  But I'd say it is firmly in the second tier with Tralee and Old Head.

 Doug, Have you been to the NW of Eire. If not  play Carne, Ballyliffin, Rosses Point, Enniscrone, to name a few. Its different from playing down in Kerry-much quieter during the peak months. The courses are remote but high quality . Great bang for your buck. Enjoy!

[Doug Siebert]

I was not a fan of Waterville after my first visit (pre-Fazio)  I went back in 2004 and found it much improved.  It isn't in the same class as Ballybunion or Lahinch to be sure (but I consider Ballybunion my world-wide #1 and Lahinch isn't far behind)  But I'd say it is firmly in the second tier with Tralee and Old Head.

 Doug, Have you been to the NW of Eire. If not  play Carne, Ballyliffin, Rosses Point, Enniscrone, to name a few. Its different from playing down in Kerry-much quieter during the peak months. The courses are remote but high quality . Great bang for your buck. Enjoy!

Jack,

On my first visit I did venture in that direction and played Connemara which I greatly enjoyed.  It was different from any course I'd ever played before, if we ever terraform Mars that's what I'd expect golf to look like there!

I do intend to broaden my horizons in Ireland on my next visit as I've been to the SW twice and haven't visited the Dublin area courses at all, though it would be difficult to return there and not play Ballybunion or Lahinch.  That's really the problem with return trips to Scotland or Ireland. There are areas I haven't visited at all, courses I've missed in the areas I have visited, and great courses that I can't imagine not playing on a return trip.  Perhaps the only solution is to make each trip longer by a week than the previous one to accomodate this problem

Actually I guess that if I could find a great deal on a rental house for a few months since I hardly ever travel for my consulting work anymore and do it over the phone and Internet I suppose there's no reason I couldn't take a few months there and still be working full time thanks to the time difference between the UK and US.  Hmmmmm...something to consider!

[Matt_Ward]

I've only played Waterville once -- before the changes made by TF so my comments need to be kept with that in mind.

I played Waterville in-between rounds at Ballybunion / Old and Old Head.

While I liked Waterville I did not find it compelling when held against the likes of a number of other Irish courses I have played.

The key thing about this thread is to keep in mind the issue of "overrated" when compared to what?

If someone asked me is Waterville among my personal top 200 courses I've played in the world I'd say no. That doesn't mean it's dogfood by any means -- I just didn't find the overall experience when I played it to be something that left me wanting more. And the benchmark of "wanting more" is the ultimate manner in which overall greatness is assessed for me. I'd rather play Old Head again and enjoy the views and deal with the lesser holes there -- although the layout there has just enough stellar holes to keep me happy.

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