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Greg Krueger

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Arnold Palmer, Architect
« on: December 06, 2007, 03:57:16 PM »
If this has already been discussed, I apologize, I did'nt find anything on "The King".

Interested in your opinion about his work. I have played a
few of his designs including BayHill, which I thought was pretty
good.
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tlavin

Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 04:05:16 PM »
I like Bay Hill.  The reworked greens add to the challenge in a significant way.  I also really like Old Tabby Links, near Hilton Head.  That is a very special place with a very nice low country golf course.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 04:24:08 PM »
There have been many Palmer discussions here before.

My prior club was a Palmer Design and I had the good fortune to meet the late Ed Seay and the project architect for the club, Erik Larsen, who visited us on the 10th anniversary of the club's opening.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Michael Dugger

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 04:33:01 PM »
Palmer....a golf course designer....

naw, it ain't true.
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Matt_Ward

Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 04:42:53 PM »
Give AP credit -- the branding of his name has certainly allowed a wide following to emerge and chase after him and as a result put mega $$ in his pockets through his "design" work.

Overall, AP's design career is really lackluster given the layouts I have played in his portfolio. When you consider the opportunities that AP has had in terms of quality sites and bankrolled $$ behind him -- the net result from a quality architectural side is really very thin -- check out -- extremely thin.

As Steve S suggested -- there have been many previous discussion on AP.
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 05:19:37 PM »
I belong to two Palmer courses Musgrove Mill in SC (it is on the best modern list of GW) and The CC at Woodmore ranked 8th on the GD state list.  I probably have played 20 or so courses he or his design team have built.  I would give most of them a grade of B or B+.  I'm sure about the Doak scale but that may translate to a 5 or 6 for a few of them. He designs good courses, fun courses but not great courses.  I think Musgrove Mill may be his best.
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Bill_McBride

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 05:28:59 PM »
Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on December 06, 2007, 05:19:37 PM
I belong to two Palmer courses Musgrove Mill in SC (it is on the best modern list of GW) and The CC at Woodmore ranked 8th on the GD state list.  I probably have played 20 or so courses he or his design team have built.  I would give most of them a grade of B or B+.  I'm sure about the Doak scale but that may translate to a 5 or 6 for a few of them. He designs good courses, fun courses but not great courses.  I think Musgrove Mill may be his best.

Agree that Musgrove Mill is the best Palmer I've played.  Thanks, Turboe.  ;)

Is Bay Hall a Palmer Design original?  Wasn't Dick Wilson....?
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2007, 05:35:02 PM »
I think, from what I remember about previous threads, that the following are among his best:

Old Tabby
Mid-South(formerly Pinehurst Plantation)
Musgrove Mill
Bay Hill(originally a Dick Wilson design)
The Tradition in LaQuinta
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 05:35:31 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Michael Dugger

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2007, 05:37:14 PM »
yes, but has AP ever REALLY designed anything?

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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2007, 05:46:01 PM »
Michael,

We all know where you're coming from. That topic has been beaten to death on this board.Perhaps I should have said "his company's best."
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2007, 05:56:19 PM »
I've never really liked his work. I've played very little of his (or theirs) and have never tried to seek it out when going to a new area to play. I think he's been given some pretty good sites that have not been capitalized on. I think JN, his long time rival on the course and off, has probably a better body of work, although he isn't exactly my fav as well. The most notable of Palmers I've played has been Aviara. It's got a good finisher, but the rest of the course is very forgettable and I've played it a few times.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Michael Dugger

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2007, 06:34:35 PM »
Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on December 06, 2007, 05:46:01 PM
Michael,

We all know where you're coming from. That topic has been beaten to death on this board.Perhaps I should have said "his company's best."

Sorry, didn't mean to be a dick.

But I am getting quite tired of the misrepresentation of the facts.

Call it a freaking Ed Seay design, I have no problem with it not being a known golfing legend who designed the courses.

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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Bill Brightly

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2007, 06:52:07 PM »
Kings North has always been one of my favorites at Myrtle Beach.
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Kyle Henderson

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2007, 07:14:18 PM »
Hiddenbrooke (Vallejo, CA) is a fun track, though it is a power cart course with housing. The Old Course at Half Moon Bay was disappointing.

I think the praise aimed at Bay Hill ties in well with the current threads discussing how time can 1) make up for a lack of talent in course design and 2) allow the designer to see how the course plays before making fine adjustments to improve the layout (e.g. Crump at P.V., Ross at #2) given Arnold's constant tinkering there over the decades.
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David Stamm

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2007, 07:17:08 PM »
But as Bill pointed out Kyle, AP didn't originally design BH, Dick Wilson did.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Andy Troeger

Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2007, 09:01:13 PM »
Only Palmer course I've played is Tartan Fields in Dublin, OH. As Tommy said earlier in the thread, its good, fun golf, but not great. Any other thoughts on that course?
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J_ Crisham

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2007, 09:15:38 PM »
Tralee has some of the greatest dunes holes and also some great estuary holes-very scenic course with a couple of goofy holes most notably the 11th a par five that is about uphill as any you'll ever see.
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Doug Sobieski

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2007, 09:33:16 PM »
Quote from: Andy Troeger on December 06, 2007, 09:01:13 PM
Only Palmer course I've played is Tartan Fields in Dublin, OH. As Tommy said earlier in the thread, its good, fun golf, but not great. Any other thoughts on that course?

Andy:

I was the original Director of Golf at Tartan Fields and was there throughout the construction process. I got to see first hand how a hands-on owner could influence the design process (and not in a positive way). But, if you are writing the checks, your opinion is all that really matters ::) It could have been a bit better, but some changes were made in the field without the consent of the lead architect (Harrison Minchew), and the end result was not as good as it could have been.

You are right, it can be a fun golf course, and it's very user-friendly (huge fairways!!!).

Regards,

Sobe
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Yannick Pilon

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2007, 09:56:54 PM »
Bill,

King's North is the only one I have played from his firm, and let me tell you: it does not really make me want to play any other....

Bunkers in the shape of letters (S.C.), a gazillion bunkers on the 18th, the "famous" Gambler par 5.... ::)

There must be at least a dozen better courses in Myrtle Beach!

Sorry to not agree with you on that one!

YP
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www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Tim Gavrich

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 10:02:09 PM »
Something familiar to me among the Palmer & Co. canon is Gillette Ridge, in Bloomfield, CT...you know, the one Rod (Ron?) Whitten declared was better than Wintonbury Hills? ::)

Lexington CC's scorecard indicates that it was (re-) designed by Ellis Maples and Ed Seay in 1961.
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Bill Brightly

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2007, 10:10:45 PM »
Yannick,

I have other favorites at MB, but for some reason I always liked Kings North. It was always in really good condition, and lots of fun shots.

I agree about the gambler. Stupid hole and no reason  to "gamble" so I just play it like a par 5 and try to make birdie with a wedge.


Wonder what others say about the course?
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Kyle Henderson

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Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2007, 10:26:04 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on December 06, 2007, 07:17:08 PM
But as Bill pointed out Kyle, AP didn't originally design BH, Dick Wilson did.

Quite true. Likewise, one might argue as to just how much Crump can take credit for at PV.

Frankly, (disclaimer) from the very little I know on the subject, I think its likely that Palmer has had far more input with the current Bay Hill layout than most of his companies "original" designs.

...Just my impression based on second-hand information.
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"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Andy Troeger

Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2007, 10:38:38 PM »
Quote from: Doug Sobieski on December 06, 2007, 09:33:16 PM
Quote from: Andy Troeger on December 06, 2007, 09:01:13 PM
Only Palmer course I've played is Tartan Fields in Dublin, OH. As Tommy said earlier in the thread, its good, fun golf, but not great. Any other thoughts on that course?

Andy:

I was the original Director of Golf at Tartan Fields and was there throughout the construction process. I got to see first hand how a hands-on owner could influence the design process (and not in a positive way). But, if you are writing the checks, your opinion is all that really matters ::) It could have been a bit better, but some changes were made in the field without the consent of the lead architect (Harrison Minchew), and the end result was not as good as it could have been.

You are right, it can be a fun golf course, and it's very user-friendly (huge fairways!!!).

Regards,

Sobe


Doug,
I would agree that its user friendly generally for the better player but I remember quite a few forced carries and water holes that could make it a ball-eater for someone who doesn't carry the ball far or is a little off. The island green at #8 didn't do much for me with the row of houses as the backdrop.

I did think there were some very cool uses of angled hazards on other holes though, like #10 (which got me) and #12 I think where I hit the green. The par three sixth would be another good example of that. I think it usually is ranked toward the bottom of the top 25 in Ohio which is probably about right with my fairly limited experience in the state.
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Sam Morrow

Re:Arnold Palmer, Architect
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2007, 10:59:51 PM »
The work of Palmer design is okay to me, the Palmer-Lakeside at Barton Creek is okay, I enjoyed Bay Hill (not sure how much I would have enjoyed it if I hadn't seen Arnie in the locker room). His work at The Woodlands Country Club never struck me as anything special, though I enjoyed Fossil Creek Golf Club in Ft. Worth a great deal.
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