[Jim Franklin]

I just got through playing this new Jim Engh layout, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I was not a fan of Lakota Canyon like some here, but really enjoyed this layout. After talking with the pro at length in regard to Jim's style, it struck me that Engh does not build courses for the pros, but for the average golfer to have fun. Once you get over the wild undulating greens, the mounds in the fairway and their intimidating presence, and just hit the ball and watch it bounce here and there, it really is a fun layout.

Most people know I love Ballyneal and their wild greens and these are wild as well. I would have a hard time listening to someone say Ballyneal's are great but The Creek Club's are not. (Not that anyone has said this yet, but I fear people on this site will love the Doak greens, but hate the Engh greens which isn't right). Jim built some of the coolest greens I have played.

All in all, I found this course to be very fun, very playable, and I look forward to getting back. By the way, we played the right green on #18 and you need a juicy cut to get home in two. The center green complex looks the most fun and the left one looks the most difficult.

[Mike Mosely]

nice, Jim...any pictures?

[Andy Troeger]

Mike,
There have been pictures posted of the course in the past year. I'm not sure how much luck searching will do but there was a thread with lots of photos (at least once).

[Jim Franklin]

Mike -

I bought a nice camera a few years ago for my trip to Scotland and it stayed in my room the entire trip. I generally get so focused on the course and my game that I forget to snap pictures so I don't even try anymore. Plus, even if I remembered to take pictures, I have no idea how to post them.

The course is very cool and if you let yourself just play the slopes and contours it can be a blast.

Golf is not increasing in numbers because it is too fun, but because it is hard. Jim Engh is trying to make it fun for golfers of all abilities and should not be knocked for that (Tommy). I bet if you guys tried his course, and I mean take away any preconceived notions and just played, you would have a blast. I know I did.

I may have to give Lakota another shot.

[TaylorA]

Mike:

Here is the thread with the pictures I took of the course:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=30082;start=msg582678

It includes a link to my review of the course as well.

Jim: I couldn't agree more with your assessment. The course is fun.

[Pete Lavallee]

Jim,

I played the course in Oct. and have mixed emotions about it. There are some really fun holes and some of the greens are a blast to putt on.

I strongly dislike the bowled out green sites; there is no difference between a straight shot and one pulled 20-30 yards off line. Now if the bank was on only one side of the green and rewarded shots shots played to intentionally carrom in from that side I be a lot happier. I can't seem to appreciate what happens on say the 13th, the second par 3 on the back nine, where you pull or push your tee shot and the ball rolls side to side 3 or 4 times before coming to rest; hey nothing like 4 chances for an ace on the same hole.

Are Jim's "muscle bunkers" fun? We watched the 2 retired couples who played in front of us really struggle to climb in and out of them, never mind play successful shots from them. I do suspect they provide a thrill for golfers who can carry them.

I also disliked the fact that every green site had to attacked through the air, not one chance for a run up shot. Is this going to play well with the people who comprise the membership of the Creek Club?  

I was thankful that Jim had at least one uphill tee shot, over the navel and through the cleavage.

This is the only Engh I had the chance to play and although there are some fun shots, it's an uneasy mix of pandering and severity that just doesn't seem right on the same golf course.

[Jim Franklin]

Pete -

I did not hit into any of the deep bunkers, but see how they would be a challenge. If you can stay out of them, it is fairly fun. The course was designed to be fun. That is the philosophy behind the bowl green sites. You can be offline a bit if you are the right distance, but don't be too long or too short because that is where you get punished.

I noticed there were no run up shots which I was a little disappointed by but the greens were so fun, it really didn't bother me.

I busted a drive right through the cleavage, but had a hard time concentrating on the shot . That tee shot reminded me of a Strantz type hole like at Tobacco Road.

[Andy Troeger]

Without having played the Creek Course, I can say from Lakota and other Engh layouts that with his bowl greens if you manage to get it up on the sides of the bowls the recovery shots are rather challenging. If they keep a bit of rough up there it can make the course play much tougher.

And I agree that Engh designs courses that are fun to play.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Are Engh's bunkers a signature?  They all look pretty much the same with those steep tongues creeping down the face of the trap.  Or i it just boring to see the same look over and over?

[Tom_Doak]

"I would have a hard time listening to someone say Ballyneal's are great but The Creek Club's are not. (Not that anyone has said this yet, but I fear people on this site will love the Doak greens, but hate the Engh greens which isn't right)."

Jim F:  I have not seen The Creek Club (or at least not THIS one) so I can't comment on any greens specifically, but I have seen several of Jim Engh's designs, and I think it's fair to say that our two styles of green contouring are VERY different.  Both styles may be characterized as "wild", but I do think it's possible to like one style and dislike the other.

[Kalen Braley]

Just my two cents...

I really liked all of the Engh courses I've played, and there are some fun shots to be had.  But I have to agree as stated before, the greens do get reptetive because almost every single one is a bowl.  While the bunkers are either muscle bunkers or pots, I seem pretty nuetral to them.  But perhaps its just my ability, despite my horrid handicap to stay out of most bunkers.

[Jim Franklin]

"I would have a hard time listening to someone say Ballyneal's are great but The Creek Club's are not. (Not that anyone has said this yet, but I fear people on this site will love the Doak greens, but hate the Engh greens which isn't right)."

Jim F:  I have not seen The Creek Club (or at least not THIS one) so I can't comment on any greens specifically, but I have seen several of Jim Engh's designs, and I think it's fair to say that our two styles of green contouring are VERY different.  Both styles may be characterized as "wild", but I do think it's possible to like one style and dislike the other.

I agree the contouring is different, but you both get some pretty wild, fun greens. I like them both and enjoy the challenge each presents. I would have a tough time liking one and then saying I didn't like the other.

[Jim Franklin]

Just my two cents...

I really liked all of the Engh courses I've played, and there are some fun shots to be had.  But I have to agree as stated before, the greens do get reptetive because almost every single one is a bowl.  While the bunkers are either muscle bunkers or pots, I seem pretty nuetral to them.  But perhaps its just my ability, despite my horrid handicap to stay out of most bunkers.

My two cents on the greens at The Creek Club...

No 1 - Plateau - falls away to the front and most of the back
     2 - Bowl - long w/ front approach
     3 - Plateau - falls away on all sides
     4 - Plateau - falls away in front, left and most of back
     5 - Bench - falls away left and front
     6 - Bowl - long w/ diagonal approach
     7 - Plateau - falls away on all sides
     8 - Bowl - round bowl
     9 - Bowl - with 8' step
    10- Bench - falls away front and right
    11- Plateau - falls away on all sides
    12- Plateau - falls away on all sides
    13- Bowl - why is four tries ata hole in one bad?
    14- Bench- falls away at front
    15- Combo - Bench / Bowl
    16- Plateau - falls away on 80 % of green
    17- Bowl - split green
    18- Right green is plateau
         Middle green is perp. bowl
         Left green is round bowl

Kalen, thoughts?

[Mike Hendren]

Most people know I love Ballyneal and their wild greens and these are wild as well. I would have a hard time listening to someone say Ballyneal's are great but The Creek Club's are not. (Not that anyone has said this yet, but I fear people on this site will love the Doak greens, but hate the Engh greens which isn't right). Jim built some of the coolest greens I have played.

"Cool" is the most appropriate description of Engh's architecture based solely on having played Fossil Trace and Creek Club.  That said, I see substantial difference in the greens at Ballyneal and Creek Club.  The Ballyneal movement is either natural and random or (or cleverly designed to appear so) while the Creek Club greens are universarlly sectioned into separate areas that for the most part involve only modest, if any break.  Engh's greens are easily solved by merely hitting to the correct segment, which is easily identifiable from the fairway or tee.

Mike

[Lou_Duran]

Michael Hendren,

You must be a very tall man or have special vision.  One of the very few things I didn't like about The Creek is the blindness on the approach shots to most greens which made for some interesting putting.  Of course, theoretically, a shot should be truly blind but once.  That might hold for Matt Ward and his near-photographic memory, but most of us have a hard time just remembering what we had for lunch yersterday.  All-in-all I found the course to be highly entertaining and great for one's self-esteem.

[Anthony_Nysse]

This topic may have very good timing as I see that Mr. Jim Engh is our newest member. Welcome Jim!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Jim Franklin]

Michael Hendren,

You must be a very tall man or have special vision.  One of the very few things I didn't like about The Creek is the blindness on the approach shots to most greens which made for some interesting putting.  Of course, theoretically, a shot should be truly blind but once.  That might hold for Matt Ward and his near-photographic memory, but most of us have a hard time just remembering what we had for lunch yersterday.  All-in-all I found the course to be highly entertaining and great for one's self-esteem.

Lou -

I enjoyed the blind shots and figured out early it was better to be a little long than a little short. Next time just take an extra club and get it to the hole although it sounds like you had a good time there.

I will second Tony's response and say welcome to the site Mr Engh.

[Mike Hendren]

Michael Hendren,
You must be a very tall man or have special vision.  

Lou, like Buford Pusser I walk tall.  Also, I have been called a visionary and while I no longer have hops was formerly known as Mr. Windex for my ability to clean the glass in jr. high hoops.  

Welcome back.

[Lou_Duran]

Thanks Mike.  Very funny.

Bill Vostinak once told me that he feels the slope of the land, particularly on the greens, with his feet.  As he walks up to his shot, he also notes the surrounding elevations visually and spends little time over the ball.  I've seen him putt very well in a nanosecond without bending over for a read or taking practice strokes.  Perhaps you are blessed with similar unique powers.

[Jeff_Brauer]

This topic may have very good timing as I see that Mr. Jim Engh is our newest member. Welcome Jim!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

You can thank me. He told me he has avoided the site and I told him he should be on here to defend himself! I think he took my advice......

[paul cowley]

Thanks Jeff.

[Andy Troeger]

Just my two cents...

I really liked all of the Engh courses I've played, and there are some fun shots to be had.  But I have to agree as stated before, the greens do get reptetive because almost every single one is a bowl.  While the bunkers are either muscle bunkers or pots, I seem pretty nuetral to them.  But perhaps its just my ability, despite my horrid handicap to stay out of most bunkers.

Kalen,
I think Lakota has more bowl shaped greens than any of the other three Engh courses I've seen. It did get a tad repetitive there, however its not necessarily the norm from my experience. Redlands didn't has as many that I remember.

Pradera actually has some neat plateau greens, with #10 coming to mind with the green sloping off on all sides.

[Geoffrey Childs]

"I would have a hard time listening to someone say Ballyneal's are great but The Creek Club's are not. (Not that anyone has said this yet, but I fear people on this site will love the Doak greens, but hate the Engh greens which isn't right)."

Jim F:  I have not seen The Creek Club (or at least not THIS one) so I can't comment on any greens specifically, but I have seen several of Jim Engh's designs, and I think it's fair to say that our two styles of green contouring are VERY different.  Both styles may be characterized as "wild", but I do think it's possible to like one style and dislike the other.

I would agree with Tom Doak on this point. On a trip this summer I played Ballyneal and a Jim Engh course within the space of a day.  I found the greens at Ballyneal to be exciting, fun, challenging and totally natural and pleasing to the eye.  Their internal complexity varied greatly from hole to hole.  I found the Engh greens to be as if they were dropped from a space ship. They were repetitive and predictable. While the course had several thrilling shots and interesting holes the experience was not one I could ever choose as a steady golf diet.

Mike Hendron's post #13 sums up my feelings on the styles of greens pretty well too.

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