[Jordan Wall]

I was thinking about designing an uphill par three today and was having a hard time figuring out how far uphill is 'too far' uphill, and how far uphill is reasonable.

Generally, when designing an uphill par three, how far uphill can the hole go before going overboard (too far uphill)?
20 feet uphill?
50 feet uphill?

What are some good examples of uphill par threes?

What are some good examples of par threes that go way uphill?

Thanks.

[Andy Ryall]

I would submit the 5th hole at Sutton Bay - probably 35-30 feet uphill as a good example.   Large bunker fronting the center of the green with a reasonable backstop for longer shots.

Strategically, I think these really force the player to check the ego and take 2 or more clubs to get to the putting surface.  Something that rarely happens, especially the 1st time playing a hole.

[Garland Bayley]

Jordan,

Just shorten the 12th at Chambers Bay a little and you've got it.

[cary lichtenstein]

9th hole at Jupiter Hills is "way uphill" and the best uphill par 3 I can remember at 2 am

[Gerry B]

there are so many to choose from - here are a few to consider :

11 at Shinnecock
5 at Pine Valley
the eden hole at Forsgate (Banks Course)
3 at Merion East
16 at Beacon Hall in Toronto
5 at Fishers Island - one of my favorite holes on the planet
13 at Newport
philly country club has a great one
10 at Bel air and 16 is pretty great as well

[Pete_Pittock]

Jordan,
   While I enjoy blind shots they shouldn't be on a par 3. Some part of the flag should be visible, even with a back hole location. The Dell at Lahinch and the 5th at Prestwick are exceptions which prove the rule.
   I'd make about 30' my limit. Don't put a false front on it.
 

[Garland Bayley]

TD has discussed this on here before. You need to put in some kind of guideposts like positioning bunkers to show they way.

[Pete_Pittock]

Bayley,

When guide markers are used, one always wonder how accurate they are. If the keepers can't line up tee markers correctly, why should I believe they can do a better job with a marking stone? If it is accurate, is that to the left, center or right of the tee box?

[Doug Siebert]

Is the amount of uphill that's "too much" different if you are talking only about longer tees, with the shorter tees starting a bit higher up and/or at a better angle so as not to overly disadvantage weaker players who can't hit the ball as high?

After all, the vast majority of holes that play well downhill on the tee shot have the longer hitters starting higher than the shorter hitters, so doesn't it make sense to do that it in reverse for the uphill holes?

[Garland Bayley]

Pete,

You misunderstand. The advice was to put bunkers in a position such as the edges marking where the edge of the green would be.

I wasn't referring to a marker stone or other such device.

[Tom Roewer]

The 13th @ Crail  Balcomie is one of my favorite holes of all time.  The green sits on a cliff going back up to the clubhouse elevated about 50-60 feet if i remember correctly. Great hole!!  I've got a great pic of it, but not digital and i can't scan it here.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Here's a bad one for you  -  #16 at Whitemarsh.  Way too much uphill  -  probably 50-75 ft.
   Also not so good, I believe  -  #15 at Overbrook.  Again, too much uphill.
   #3 at Merion and #15 at Pine Valley are terrific.  Why?  They go way downhill before the uphill starts, so they're not that uphill overall.

[Kyle Harris]

Pete,

It's not the job of anyone else but the golfer to line up a shot. Get the idea of lining up tees correctly out of your head. Tees that "point the way" for one may not point the way for another.

Jim,

I quite like the 16th at Whitemarsh and was going to cite it on this thread as a good example.

[Tom_Doak]

Jordan:

This is a math problem at its heart, which I'll solve for you below.

Let's say the length of your hole is 200 yards, or 600 feet.  The green can't have more than a 3% tilt if it's going to work at high green speeds, and I suspect you want to see some of the green surface from the tee.

So, take that same 3% tilt and extend it back 600 feet.  That's 18 feet.  Add in the fact that your eye level is five feet above the tee, and now you're at 23 feet.  That's the limit for seeing any of the green from the tee, other than a false front or a severe tier in the green.

I think if you look at a lot of the hole Gerry B mentioned, you'll find they climb 15-20 feet so you can see the green a bit better than that.  The 11th hole at Crystal Downs is 17 feet uphill and the green tilts at 4% with some bigger tiers, so you can see it really well, but the tilt is becoming unplayable when the greens are at 10 everyday.

If you look at a lot of the famous courses, that same 20-foot step was often used for uphill tee shots as well ... but you can get away with a lot more on the tee shot if you want, because the landing area can tilt a lot more than 3%.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom/Jordan,

I have no problem with blindness on the par 3 if you get a preview while playing another hole. This is the case at Whitemarsh among a few others.

Do either of you think it's unreasonable to ask a golfer to pay attention to his surroundings and have a bit of a memory every now and then?

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:

I don't think it's unreasonable at all, but I know that most golfers don't notice that kind of stuff four holes in advance, so when they get to the sharply uphill par 3, they are disposed not to like it.

[Ian Andrew]

The best I have ever seen is the 9th at Capilano - the green is not visible, but the front bunker is on a massive enough scale to make everything very, very clear.

The hole rises at least 25 feet from tee to the "front" of the green - the green then rises around 3 feet from front to back. The one facinating feature is the quick rise right in front of the green that seems to make the target all that more clear. he did the same at Catarqui on another uphill par 3 which is easily one of the 10 best threes in Canada.

[J_ Crisham]

The TPC at Deere Run in the Quad Cities has a fine uphill par 3 that is about 175yds from the tour tees. It rises about 20 feet. I think DA Weibering did a nice job using this in the routing. The previous hole is a par 5 that is mostly downhill. He incorporates a ridgeline to set the green and bunkering to direct you on the target line. The putting surface is not visible but the top half of the pin is. A nice hole.  

[Jeff Doerr]

Jordan,

The second hole at Bandon Dunes is uphill, but has a lot of the features already mentioned.

1) There is a preview of the surface and flag position (at least from the original 1st green - the new alternative #1 does not have this).
2) There is a bit of a walk (downhill) to the tee from the first green, but the uphill walk is a great transition to get you to the great #3 vantage point tee.
3) The green has a step bank in front, but you are unlikely to have a shot hit the green and trickle off to oblivion.

Here is a link to the hole:
http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/bandon_hole2.cfm

Cheers, Jeff

[Joe Bausch]

The 14th at Lederach is a long (200+) uphill par 3, with a big, undulating green.  I'm guessing the hole is maybe 40 ft uphill.

[Mike Benham]

Tom/Jordan,

I have no problem with blindness on the par 3 if you get a preview while playing another hole. This is the case at Whitemarsh among a few others.

Do either of you think it's unreasonable to ask a golfer to pay attention to his surroundings and have a bit of a memory every now and then?

Like this one?

View from the 3rd tee ...




View from the 8th tee box ...

[Pete_Pittock]

Kyle Harris,
  I totally agree with you. It is the golfer's responsibility to line up correctly most of the time this is quite easy. On a blind shot it is another story. Its slightly better than shooting ducks while blindfolded.
 On a blind shot you have to rely on the golf course and their personnel because there is no visible target.   If they have proved their non-competence by setting non-square tee markers, why should I believe a marker stone is accurate, especially on a large teeing ground.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan:

This is a math problem at its heart, which I'll solve for you below.

Let's say the length of your hole is 200 yards, or 600 feet.  The green can't have more than a 3% tilt if it's going to work at high green speeds, and I suspect you want to see some of the green surface from the tee.

So, take that same 3% tilt and extend it back 600 feet.  That's 18 feet.  Add in the fact that your eye level is five feet above the tee, and now you're at 23 feet.  That's the limit for seeing any of the green from the tee, other than a false front or a severe tier in the green.

I think if you look at a lot of the hole Gerry B mentioned, you'll find they climb 15-20 feet so you can see the green a bit better than that.  The 11th hole at Crystal Downs is 17 feet uphill and the green tilts at 4% with some bigger tiers, so you can see it really well, but the tilt is becoming unplayable when the greens are at 10 everyday.

If you look at a lot of the famous courses, that same 20-foot step was often used for uphill tee shots as well ... but you can get away with a lot more on the tee shot if you want, because the landing area can tilt a lot more than 3%.

Tom,

That makes a lot of sense.  And that helps me out a lot.  The hole I was thinking about designing would play 187 yards from the back tee markers and go about 25 feet uphill and over a ridge.  I think I could make the hole could work now, based on your description.  Thanks for the help!


Kyle,

Yes, I believe the player should pay attention during a round of golf.  A good routing will allow the player to gain an advantage by paying attention and looking at his surroundings to see other holes during the course of the round.  However, this hole I am thinking of, which may be partially blind (you will still be able to see the top of the flagstick for all locations), would be the second hole of the course and thus the player would not get to preview it.

[Dan Kelly]

... most golfers don't notice that kind of stuff four holes in advance, so when they get to the sharply uphill par 3, they are disposed not to like it.

To Tom Doak, and anyone else who cares to answer --

Human beings are disposed not to like all sorts of stuff that's good for them -- including, I think, sharply uphill par-3s.

Do you think there's any hope of changing such dispositions?

How much more design freedom would you have if you could change people's "dispositions," or ignore them?

What sorts of holes would you design, that you don't design now?

[Patrick Glynn]

Would the 3rd and 5th at Pasatiempo be good examples of quality uphill Par 3s? The green surface itself is largely blind on 3, but I dont think that takes from the hole in any way.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()