[Adam Clayman]

It never ceased to amaze me when golfer's would drive their carts out into native areas. Especially when they had been fore-warned not to do so.
However, after seeing how many of these sand based courses get over watered and over fertilized (to attract the customer, or, keep the members happy) end up with surrounds that have dense unrecoverable over-growth. I was wondering if allowing cart traffic over these areas wouldn't help return the sparseness needed for a more enjoyable experience?

Would the Wooga at Wild Horse be less dense as a result of cart traffic?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Probably, but it might over shoot the mark to bare ground, which in sand, and flat, might not be terrible, but would be a mess in clay soils.

There is a real problem with natives.  We are trying to save them on a project and I just got off a conference call stressing to the owner and irrigation designer the need to use part circle sprinklers on the edges. Otherwise, the first ten feet of native is dense and later it thins out, thus punishing the near miss much less than the wide one.

As to cart driving, I know a guy who, when using GPS equipped carts, drives on tees of par 3's, not thinking driving up parallel on the path gets him the right yardage.  He shoots 100, so I doubt a few yards difference would affect him.  That beats driving in natives for pure stupidity.

[Dan Kelly]

As to cart driving, I know a guy who, when using GPS equipped carts, drives on tees of par 3's, not thinking driving up parallel on the path gets him the right yardage.  He shoots 100, so I doubt a few yards difference would affect him.  That beats driving in natives for pure stupidity.

Does he drive his cart right OVER his ball in the fairway (or, more likely, the rough), so that the GPS unit is directly above his ball for its reading?

(And as for pure stupidity: I just hope he never encounters any skittish rodents on those tees.)

[Adam Clayman]

Thanx Jeff.
 Since the expense to manage them properly is likely prohibitive, having the clientel do your work for you, at least on a temporary basis, seems like a great way to go, with little downside.
 Having the irrigation design minimize throw is a great idea, but, attention will still be required when nature isn't being fully cooperative.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

I think that depends a little on whether you preserved some native grasses that have thrived for a million years or whether you tore them out, shaped, and planted back with some pseudo native looking grass that needs some time to establish.

I have never irrigated preserved grasses (like the Konza prairie we worked through at Colbert Hills) but have made provisions for occaisional irrigation when using fescues, etc.

BTW, water management of fescue is critical to keep them wispy, as opposed to a bunch of overgrown junk, both out in roughs and even harder, on fw bunker banks that might get irrigation otherwise from surrounding heads.

[Gary Slatter]

As to cart driving, I know a guy who, when using GPS equipped carts, drives on tees of par 3's, not thinking driving up parallel on the path gets him the right yardage.  He shoots 100, so I doubt a few yards difference would affect him.  That beats driving in natives for pure stupidity.

Does he drive his cart right OVER his ball in the fairway (or, more likely, the rough), so that the GPS unit is directly above his ball for its reading?

(And as for pure stupidity: I just hope he never encounters any skittish rodents on those tees.)

Here in Scotland our one course, The Devlin, has carts (buggies) and every day I am amazed by where "players" drive their GPS equipped carts.  Often it is their first time using a cart, and once they get the hang of the GPS it becomes mandatory to drive on the tees and wherever the ball goes, fescue or not.  I'd rather not have the GPS.  Of course I also like the rabbits.

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, The courses I'm thinking of have been in the ground for the better part of a decade, and more. All of the grasses that exist off the maintained playing cooridors are a healthy mix of what I assume are native grasses, plants, and weeds, but, also some of the golf courses cultivars that have spread. Not too aggressively mind you, but enough that when un-maintained, lowers everyones enjoyment because the group is constantly looking for balls.

Would the temporary use of cart traffic knock down the condition?

In the case of Wild Horse in G-burg Ne. Josh Mahar burns his surrounds approx. every other year. If carts were allowed out in these surrounds during the re-growin period, I can't help but think Wild Horse's surrounds would cease to need the burning.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The cart and GPS companies must know this and at Fortune Bay, the carts are equipped with GPS activate kill switches. You drive in the native and the engine cuts off.  Given the rock ledges that place has, they also use it to prevent drunken idiots from driving off the edge.

They also continuoulsy show the location of the beer cart and other foursomes, which can be safe and handy!

Dan, no, being right next to his ball seems okay, but being 25 feet away on the cart path, and having to eyeball the matching distance seems to trouble him.  And, sometimes, the cart paths are further from the tee or not where he can get a measurement.  But usually, they are, and of course, he could probably pace off from tee markers, etc.

My then younger son used to prefer the GPS to tell him how far he had driven the tee shot as much as how much he had left to the green.  

[Bill Brightly]

.

My then younger son used to prefer the GPS to tell him how far he had driven the tee shot as much as how much he had left to the green.  

That is so funny! While I am figuring out my distance to the pin, my little guy is constantly figuring out how far he just hit his drive...

[SL_Solow]

Adam;  my understanding is that burning certain types of native grasses is necessary to their health and goes beyond the desire to thin them out.  When left to grow naturally, as in a prarie, they periodically burned as a result of lightening strikes and the like.  Thus they adapted to a periodic burning.  Burning them out replicates the natural experience.  Also, controlled burns are far less dangerous than uncontrolled ones, particularly if the plants have been allowed to grow too thick a lesson reinforced by the experience in southern California.

[Adam Clayman]

Shel, I shouldn't have said cease. I meant longer durations between burning but got carried away in the notion.

I suspect my question is unanswerable since no one has likely ever tried to do such a cockamamie thing. Let alone, needed to do it, until now.

[PThomas]

Adam;  my understanding is that burning certain types of native grasses is necessary to their health and goes beyond the desire to thin them out.  

Shel is correct

[Pat Brockwell]

Adam,
Native grasses are also adapted to grazing.  String trimmers (or rotary mowers set high) used once or twice a season helps alot.  Typically there is a flush of growth in the spring, it dries out in the heat of summer, and then there is another flush of growth in August/September.  Is this becoming an issue at Baalyneal?  Another idea; Bison! They could do the bunkers too.

[Adam Clayman]

No Pat, Not at Ballyneal. Besides having a thoughtfully designed Larry Rodgers system, which minimizes throw to the native, Dave Hensley has done a great job ensuring the springs rain did not over grow the native. I assume he did exactly what you said. Whack Whack

At Places like WH and Bayside, with much smaller budgets, I thought having the masses do your thining was novel.

[Dan Smoot]

No Pat, Not at Ballyneal. Besides having a thoughtfully designed Larry Rodgers system, which minimizes throw to the native, Dave Hensley has done a great job ensuring the springs rain did not over grow the native. I assume he did exactly what you said. Whack Whack

At Places like WH and Bayside, with much smaller budgets, I thought having the masses do your thining was novel.

Adam,

I am a bit confused at Wildhorse.  Why do they burn alternate 9's each year.  You can easily tell the difference even if you play late in the summer/fall.  I played there early in October this year and I never remember seeing the native areas so thick.  Some of my wayward shots were almost unplayable from very near the green because of the dense native grass.  I had thought the burns were done to keep the course a little more playable from the native areas.

I would think I was in heaven if I could play there regularly.  I had the opportunity to take my Dad.  He couldn't believe we were in some small town in the middle of nowhere Nebraska to play this "great" golf course and I was taking him down a dirt road with 7 foot high corn stalks on each side.  The looks I got were priceless.  Those looks went away quite quickly.

[Adam Clayman]

Dan, A longer burning interval is important because after the burning, the native comes back even stronger.
 
Same happened at Yellowstone. They even say the Bear's who usually only have two cubs, had three the season after the fire because of the plentiful growth of their food source. Ain't nature amazing?

Josh's regiment might not be as religious as each nine every other year. I recall either this year, or last, he had only burned the perimeter surrounds.

Wild Horse is not the major culprit here, either. There are plenty of spots which aren't that bad. But as Dan said, there's some horrible situations. Bayside really has not maintained their surrounds, and is much worse. There it is a manpower issue.

Dismal River was thoughtful enough to cut theirs back about 6 yards on each side of the corridor, this year. It was especially heavy, the first year, due to the demands placed on a JN signature design, conditioningwise.

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