[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Mike Sweeney posted some excllent pictures of the new viewsone encounters walking down the 1st through 5th greens. At the end of the round there is another new view.  

[Mike Sweeney]

Robert,

I love that picture. One of my favorite things to do is to play a modern and a classic in the same day, and that would be a great place to do it.

My critique on the other thread was not of Sebonack as a club, it was specifically directed at the chain link fence. The suggestion by a Super to plant a creeping ivy to cover it was what I was hoping for. By the way they have some new pictures on their website, and unfortunately for Kyle, a dress code!

http://www.sebonack.com/

[TEPaul]

I have no problem at all with any of the new look or visibility of anything to do with Sebonack, including the recently visible clubhouse.

I do recognize that there are various people from the surrounding clubs who may have some problems with it though.

In my opinion, their complaints and such should probably be viewed as nothing more than their own stew of sour grapes, rotten tomatoes and tough potatoes.

The point is that land was purchaseable by any of those clubs or anyone who had to do with them on and off a number of times over the decades and no one ever even bothered to step up to the plate to do anything about it.

Mike Pascucci bought that land and owns it and he has every right and reason to do whatever he wants with it given zoning codes and such.

The same kind of thing happened around me.

A few years ago this young movie director M. Night Shamalyn bought the huge estate (about 100 acres) across the street from me and proceeded to put a deer and security fence around the whole place.

And then a couple of young and relatively "Johnny-come-lately" whippersnappers in the township decided to lobby that he take it down because it was ruining their visual enjoyment of the countryside or some other such bullshit.

M. Night was within zoning code so these whippersnappers sued him and the zoning codes too.

Of course after a couple of years of legal wrangling they lost and he won which was completely inevitable anyway.

If they wanted to excercise that kind of proprietariness over his or some else's property then THEY should have put up the app $20 million to buy the place that he did.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
The same thing sort of happens with me and that Pamela Sue Anderson, who lives in the condo directly next door to me. She gets very upset that I'm constantly trying to peep into her windows and she just recently had a restraining order put on me where I can't be with-in 500 feet of her. So now, I have to sleep out in my parking lot--the whore!

[Bill_McBride]

Tom,
The same thing sort of happens with me and that Pamela Sue Anderson, who lives in the condo directly next door to me. She gets very upset that I'm constantly trying to peep into her windows and she just recently had a restraining order put on me where I can't be with-in 500 feet of her. So now, I have to sleep out in my parking lot--the whore!

Tommy, call the moderator.

[John Kavanaugh]

Back during my days as a public servant I would have the pleasure of writing and enforcing zoning laws.  I do not agree that just because it does not violate an existing law it makes it fine and ok or even that the owner of the property has the right to do it.  Most zoning laws are reactionary and not proactionary so if some douche bag gets ahead of the curve he gets a pass.  That makes him no less a douche bag.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike Sweeney posted some excllent pictures of the new viewsone encounters walking down the 1st through 5th greens. At the end of the round there is another new view.  

When was the Sebonac clubhouse started and finished?  I played the 18th at NGLA twice one day in September 2006 and don't recall seeing it either under construction or completed!  Was it not there yet, or was I just "in the NGLA zone?"  

[Eric Franzen]

Mike Sweeney posted some excllent pictures of the new viewsone encounters walking down the 1st through 5th greens. At the end of the round there is another new view.  

When was the Sebonac clubhouse started and finished?  I played the 18th at NGLA twice one day in September 2006 and don't recall seeing it either under construction or completed!  Was it not there yet, or was I just "in the NGLA zone?"  

Construction started around June 2006, if I remember correctly, with early 2008 mentioned as preliminary finishing date. I'll guess that they were mainly working on the foundation back in September last year.

[Mike Hendren]

As Cyndi Lauper sang, money changes everything.

[Garland Bayley]

Back during my days as a public servant I would have the pleasure of writing and enforcing zoning laws.  I do not agree that just because it does not violate an existing law it makes it fine and ok or even that the owner of the property has the right to do it.  Most zoning laws are reactionary and not proactionary so if some douche bag gets ahead of the curve he gets a pass.  That makes him no less a douche bag.

Interesting to see you hold Mike Pascucci in such high regard.

[John Kavanaugh]

Back during my days as a public servant I would have the pleasure of writing and enforcing zoning laws.  I do not agree that just because it does not violate an existing law it makes it fine and ok or even that the owner of the property has the right to do it.  Most zoning laws are reactionary and not proactionary so if some douche bag gets ahead of the curve he gets a pass.  That makes him no less a douche bag.

Interesting to see you hold Mike Pascucci in such high regard.

Please.  I have not seen the work at Sebonack and did not imply anything about Mr. P.  I have been in the business of zoning and simply was giving real world proof that people who think they can build anything they want on their property are not always right.  Sometimes within the law but not always right.

[Kalen Braley]

Back during my days as a public servant I would have the pleasure of writing and enforcing zoning laws.  I do not agree that just because it does not violate an existing law it makes it fine and ok or even that the owner of the property has the right to do it.  Most zoning laws are reactionary and not proactionary so if some douche bag gets ahead of the curve he gets a pass.  That makes him no less a douche bag.

Interesting to see you hold Mike Pascucci in such high regard.

Please.  I have not seen the work at Sebonack and did not imply anything about Mr. P.  I have been in the business of zoning and simply was giving real world proof that people who think they can build anything they want on their property are not always right.  Sometimes within the law but not always right.

John,

But there is no right or wrong, moral or immoral...

All we have is legal or illegal...    

[Sebonac]

The Sebonack land was purchased in the $40+ million range...not 20.  He also placed essentially every major structure that he has put up...and there are many when you include the many "cottages" and the dorm and maintenance structures....on the border with NGLA.  A good neighbor he has not particularly turned out to be.

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I played Sebonack in August I was surprised how close the buildings were to NGLA.  I didn't look from the NGLA side, however.
It is too bad that they could not have sited the buildings in a less conspicuous place.  They are, however, in a good place as far as Sebonack is concerned.  The chain link fence is a mystery.  With all the money that was spent you would think that they could have come up with something a little more esthetically pleasing.

[John Kavanaugh]

One common zoning problem is which direction does a person put the ugly side of a wooden fence.  Facing their house or facing the neighbor.  The ugly side is the side with the posts revealed.

You have to be very good to write fence requirements that cover all the bases and you have better things to do, like kicking homeless people out of town, then spending all your time writing fence law.

[Brian Brown]

The ugly side of the fence should face the owner’s property simply for safety reasons.  If the posts faced the neighbor’s side it would make it very easy to jump the fence.  In this case a stockade fence with the nice side facing both should be a compromise.

[Garland Bayley]

The ugly side of the fence should face the owner’s property simply for safety reasons.  If the posts faced the neighbor’s side it would make it very easy to jump the fence.  In this case a stockade fence with the nice side facing both should be a compromise.

Where do you live that you worry about the neighbors jumping your fence?
 

[Brian Brown]

BROOKLYN!!!    Safety wise it is important if you have a pool in back yard.

[Mark Hissey]

The Sebonack land was purchased in the $40+ million range...not 20.  He also placed essentially every major structure that he has put up...and there are many when you include the many "cottages" and the dorm and maintenance structures....on the border with NGLA.  A good neighbor he has not particularly turned out to be.

You couldn't be more wrong.

The clubhouse site was selected for the view of the bay and the fact that it was the highest point of the property.

The cottages are separated from National by a driving range. That is hardly on the "border" as you've suggested.

I've explained ad nauseum about the maintenance facility, why it was located there, and the history of the border in that location.

You might be interested to know this also. The first hole initially supposed to be a far straighter hole. Some people knock the hole for the reason that you need to aim to the extreme left of the fairway. The reason for that was in direct response to a request to do so from NGLA.

Furthermore, National's cart barn has literally been built with the side wall directly on the property line. The back side of this wall (on Sebonack property) has been cleared to accomodate caddies, carts etc. So, given the facts on the ground (and clearly you don't have a good grasp of them), who is responsible for most of the "border building" on the property line?

For the record, once again, I want restate that Sebonack has not only been a good neighbor, but we have gone way above and beyond the call of duty to be so. These efforts have not always been reciprocated despite our desire to do the right thing for our neighbor. To state the polar opposite of the truth is both insulting and ignorant.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

This post was not meant to be a negative post.  I think it is an all-world treat to play both courses in the same day.  There are at least 3 people whom I know of, who can enjoy this pleasure at almost any time.  One cool feature of the picture is the old and new side by side.  I am certain that the Sebonic clubhouse will be very impressive--the cottages are restrained and very elegant.  The only other spot where the clubhouse would enjoy such a great view would have been where the 10th green is located--this could possibly have created routing issues.

[wsmorrison]

Sebonac should refrain from presenting hearsay as fact.  In fact, he/she should not hide behind an alias.

Mark,

Why would golfers have a problem with a dogleg that is best played along the outside of the dogleg?  Flynn designed many doglegs that way.  First, it went against convention (a good thing), often the fairway canted the opposite way which made an excellent ball striking demand, and third it plays longer than the card yardage if played correctly.  All these are good things.  If anyone knocks the hole for playing the way it does, I think they are not considering the matter very well.  In this case, I think NGLA's request was a good thing from a design perspective  

When you're driving through Philadelphia, I hope you'll stop and let me show you some of these outside doglegs.  Of course, there's some pretty good examples at your neighbor two clubs down the road.

[Mark Hissey]

This post was not meant to be a negative post.  I think it is an all-world treat to play both courses in the same day.  There are at least 3 people whom I know of, who can enjoy this pleasure at almost any time.  One cool feature of the picture is the old and new side by side.  I am certain that the Sebonic clubhouse will be very impressive--the cottages are restrained and very elegant.  The only other spot where the clubhouse would enjoy such a great view would have been where the 10th green is located--this could possibly have created routing issues.

I didn't perceive your post negetively at all. I agree with you totally. I think the two buildings will look great next to each other when Sebonack is completed.

You are also totally right about the only possible alternative site. That would have created issues for us also from a clearing standpoint. The native area on the right side of the 10th fairway was one of the least spoiled areas and was designated as a preserved area. I can say this though, had it been positioned on the site of the 10th green, I'm very confident that we would be criticized for spoiling the view from the back porch of Shinnecock's clubhouse.

I actually have some initital routings which tinkered with the idea of having the clubhouse on the 10th green and a new entrance road being built right up what is now the 14th fairway. I looked at some of those old routings a few weeks back. It's really strange to see them now knowing what is actually there.

[Mark Hissey]

Sebonac should refrain from presenting hearsay as fact.  In fact, he/she should not hide behind an alias.

Mark,

Why would golfers have a problem with a dogleg that is best played along the outside of the dogleg?  Flynn designed many doglegs that way.  First, it went against convention (a good thing), often the fairway canted the opposite way which made an excellent ball striking demand, and third it plays longer than the card yardage if played correctly.  All these are good things.  If anyone knocks the hole for playing the way it does, I think they are not considering the matter very well.  In this case, I think NGLA's request was a good thing from a design perspective  

When you're driving through Philadelphia, I hope you'll stop and let me show you some of these outside doglegs.  Of course, there's some pretty good examples at your neighbor two clubs down the road.

Wayne:

I'm just relaying comments that I've heard both first and second hand. Some people have commented that it is the weakest hole on the course. I happen to love it, one of the main reasons being that I always seem to play it so well (which as Tom, Jim U and others will verify is a very rare event ) I love the fact that you can hit the right line and it just kicks in for a perfect 9 or P into the green. Of course, then you have to deal with the dastardliness of the movement in that green...

If you have ever been on the right of that fairway, you will realize that it is not fun at all. In any case, I agree with you. The NGLA prompted change has been a good one.

Thank you for your offer. I'll definitely take you up on your offer the next time I am in the Philadelphia area.

[Rich Goodale]

I remember when Mr. T bought an estate in posh, old Lake Forest and the first thing he did was cut down every single big old tree on the entire multi-acre property -- and the entire town was outraged and picketing etc, etc.

We should get him on this site.  

Shiavs

Are you the ONLY guy on this site that does not know that Hamilton B. Hearst is actually Mr. T?

[TEPaul]

Sebonac said:

"A good neighbor he has not particularly turned out to be."

"Good neighbors" is pretty much a two way deal, don't you think Sebonac?

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