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Tim Bert

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Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« on: November 06, 2007, 11:02:22 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 05, 2007, 10:53:48 PM
It has convinced me that we do live in the greatest era of golf architecture the world has ever seen...we need to tap it while we can.  

I noticed this quote on the Erin Hills #1 thread, and I'm interested in people's thoughts on the following:

Let's narrow "era" down to 5-year period.  

1. Which 5-year period do you think yielded the best of the best?  If you take the "top 5" courses from any 5 year period, which is the strongest?

2. Which 5-year period produced the largest number of "very good" or "great" courses?

3. How does 2002-2007 stack up amongst the best 5-year periods of GCA in either of the above categories?


 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 11:02:45 PM by Tim Bert »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2007, 11:34:28 PM »
The greatest era or five year period?

The next one, of course!
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Stamm

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2007, 11:45:17 PM »
Quote from: Tim Bert on November 06, 2007, 11:02:22 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 05, 2007, 10:53:48 PM
It has convinced me that we do live in the greatest era of golf architecture the world has ever seen...we need to tap it while we can.  


Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I hope that our time eventually will be measured the same way, but John is freakin' nuts.


1925-1930


Merion
Riviera
Shinnecock Hills
Cypress Point Club
Crystal Downs


...and I left a TON that would easily make the first cut. 2002-2007 has produced some great courses, but it's a slam dunk. I could easily site another 5 year span without even overlapping this one and still come out on top.

 
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

John Kirk

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2007, 11:55:36 PM »
The Brauer Era of Golf Architecture, 2008-2012.

I'm trying to figure out which modern five year stretch works best.

Sand Hills is 1995.  1995-1999 also includes Whistling Straits and Bandon Dunes, so that's three big name courses.

Pacific Dunes is 2001.  1999-2003 is represented 8-10 times on the Golfweek modern list.  Mayacama, Kingsley, Kinloch, Calusa Pines, Wild Horse, for example.

Golfweek's 2005-2007 list is really deep.  If anything, it may be missing a couple of showstoppers at the top of the list.  Alotian doesn't let many raters play the course, otherwise it would be near the top.  The Madison Club will be a top 40 modern.  Tom Doak has Rock Creek and Wicked Pony coming up.  Wicked Pony looks strong.

1995-2009 will be really strong.  When you try to define the modern  era, one should include Sand Hills, the original and most important minimal masterpiece.  Even the staunchest Golden Age guys would agree that this represents the second best 15 year period in golf design, behind about 1918-1932.  You have to pick whether you include Pine Valley or Augusta National.

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David Stamm

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2007, 11:59:20 PM »
Another.....


1915-1920


Los Angeles CC North
Pine Valley
Pebble Beach
San Francisco GC
Fisher's Island

Again, nothing today can beat that.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

John Kirk

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2007, 12:01:18 AM »
Shinnecock Hills is 1931.

Merion is listed as 1912 on Golfweek's list, but I think Flynn redesigned it in the late 20s or early 30s.

Crystal Downs is listed as 1931, I thought it was earlier than that.

1917-1921 includes:

Pine Valley
Pebble Beach
Oakland Hills
Camargo
Plainfield

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John Kirk

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2007, 12:01:58 AM »
Hey!

What publication are you using for dates?
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David Stamm

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2007, 12:03:54 AM »
Quote from: John Kirk on November 07, 2007, 12:01:18 AM
Shinnecock Hills is 1931.

Merion is listed as 1912 on Golfweek's list, but I think Flynn redesigned it in the late 20s or early 30s.

Crystal Downs is listed as 1931, I thought it was earlier than that.

1917-1921 includes:

Pine Valley
Pebble Beach
Oakland Hills
Camargo
Plainfield





From TD's Confidential Guide


SH-1930
Merion-1925
CD-1929
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Stamm

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2007, 12:05:38 AM »
Quote from: John Kirk on November 07, 2007, 12:01:58 AM
Hey!

What publication are you using for dates?



TD's Confidential Guide. If the man is off, my apologies.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

John Kirk

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2007, 12:10:25 AM »
Well, Golf Digest's list coincides pretty closely with Golfweek's.  I wonder why Tom's list is so different; there's probably some reason.

The man is off.  Maybe.

Many of these old courses are so good because they've received 80 years of care and attention to detail, carefully eliminating any flaws to make them the perfect beings we see today.  That should get somebody's attention.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 12:13:38 AM by John Kirk »
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John Kirk

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2007, 12:15:18 AM »
Tim,

I don't think 5 years is long enough.  How about 10 or 15 or even 20?
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David Stamm

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2007, 12:17:36 AM »
John, assuming that Gw?GD is right, that still would come within the 5 year rule that Tim has set with the exception of Merion. You can choose one of the following 3 to replace it, assuming that TD is right.


Valley Club
Bel Air
Pasatiempo
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Stamm

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2007, 12:22:51 AM »
Quote from: John Kirk on November 07, 2007, 12:10:25 AM


Many of these old courses are so good because they've received 80 years of care and attention to detail, carefully eliminating any flaws to make them the perfect beings we see today.  That should get somebody's attention.




Eliminating flaws and eliminating great features as well. I know how you feel about Modern arch and I trully hope that our era reaches the lofty heights set by the GA, but we just need more of them to compete. We have a heck of start with Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Friars Head, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Kingsley, Wild Horse and others. There just too darn many from the GA to make this a fair fight no matter what kind of time span you choose.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

John Kirk

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2007, 12:30:15 AM »
2003-2007

Friar's Head
Ballyneal
Sebonack
The Madison Club
Bandon Trails

That is a competitive list.  If you don't like the completely manufactured nature of Madison, we can go with Alotian or Bright's Creek or Pronghorn to represent Tom Fazio.
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David Stamm

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2007, 12:35:42 AM »
Quote from: John Kirk on November 07, 2007, 12:30:15 AM
2003-2007

Friar's Head
Ballyneal
Sebonack
The Madison Club
Bandon Trails

That is a competitive list.  If you don't like the completely manufactured nature of Madison, we can go with Alotian or Bright's Creek or Pronghorn to represent Tom Fazio.



That is a rock solid list. I have only seen a couple of photo's of Madison Club, so I can't say for certain if it belongs with those other greats. Friar's Head and Ballyneal are the 1-2 punch of the group.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 12:36:35 AM by David Stamm »
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Stamm

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2007, 12:39:37 AM »
Quote from: John Kirk on November 07, 2007, 12:30:15 AM
2003-2007

 Pronghorn to represent Tom Fazio.



I wouldn't consider myself a big Fazio fan, but this course looks very interesting to me. I could see how some would think it looks a little overdone, but I like as a change of pace compared to what we are used to seeing from him.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom_Doak

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2007, 01:45:25 AM »
I used for my dates in The Confidential Guide mostly what I had gleaned from Whitten's old book, but some of them were definitely off.  Dates are difficult because sometimes you get the year the course was built, and the opening was one or two years later.  For example, Crystal Downs was built in 1929-30, opened in 1931.

Between 1926-1933 MacKenzie alone designed all the Melbourne courses, all the California courses, Crystal Downs and Augusta.  There were some good courses by other guys in that stretch also.
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Rich Goodale

Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2007, 03:48:17 AM »
1885-1905

The geezers who were around then got the very best land to work with.
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2007, 07:42:43 AM »
The powers of argumentation on this board have gotten dreadfully weak if the classisists have to define eras in five year increments to prove their posistion.  Why not call the time it took Marion Hollins to hit a ball across the ocean at Cypress as the greatest "era" in golf?

For one thing, very few people in history have truly identified greatness in their lifetime.  For another, often when they do the prime time has passed them by.  I know this everytime I look at a picture of my wife when she was 28 and think of the nights I spent at the tap instead of on it.  I know when I'm 70 I will look back at pictures of today and think the same thing but at least now I know what I am missing far too well.  I refuse to make the same mistake when it comes to modern architecture...I'm gonna love it and I'm gonna love it inspite of what other distractions may appear.  You guys can go to dinner with your elderly aunts and listen to stories of past greatness...I'm going to... board my plane.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 07:51:38 AM by John Kavanaugh »
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BCrosby

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2007, 08:06:11 AM »
John -

You've confused me again. Is there a rule that says you can't enjoy both modern and older courses? Everyone is time constrained, but not to the point that modern vs. classic becomes a zero sum game. Loosen up. It's ok to like both. Really, it's ok. Things aren't as bleak as you think.

Bob

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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2007, 06:52:04 PM »
Quote from: John Kirk on November 06, 2007, 11:55:36 PM
The Brauer Era of Golf Architecture, 2008-2012.


John,

I think the Brauer era lasted from December 4, 2005 10:19PM until December 4, 2005 10:24PM - for those five minutes (not years) I was on top of the pack!
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Bert

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Re:Greatest Era of Golf Architecture
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2007, 12:14:41 AM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 07, 2007, 07:42:43 AM
The powers of argumentation on this board have gotten dreadfully weak if the classisists have to define eras in five year increments to prove their posistion.  Why not call the time it took Marion Hollins to hit a ball across the ocean at Cypress as the greatest "era" in golf?



John, as the one that started this thread, I want to clarify that I don't consider myself a classisist and I have no position to prove.  I have no pre-conceived notion of the best 5-year period.  As someone else in this thread requested, I have no problem defining these buckets differently.  I could have easily said 10-year buckets or 20-year buckets.  

I thought your comments about the modern era were interesting and I wanted to explore where folks think the most recent works will find their place in history.

The intent was not argumentative.
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