Should you be able to fire approach shots directly at any pin/hole location....

« **on:** October 19, 2007, 03:01:31 PM »

...and expect that the ball will come to a stop within a 3-10 foot radius of the hole upon landing*?

*given reasonably firm green conditions

« **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2007, 03:11:16 PM »

Mike,

A lot of players think so......

If this is a take off on the other thread, I repeat my answer is no, not all pin positions, but they should generally be able to fire at some point of the green and hold it with a good shot.

« **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2007, 03:13:52 PM »

Mike, I mean MP:

I hope nobody answers in the affirmative. I dont think you can fire at any pin/hole location at Pacific Dunes or Crystal Downs (I only reference because they are the two most respected courses I have played) and expect that type of result.

There are several pins/hole locations on those courses where I had to play away from the flag in order to get the ball to roll towards the pin or below the pin in order to prevent from having a downhill putt.

So if two of the greatest courses in the world dont give you that ability then no, you "shouldnt" be able to fire directly at any pin/hole location and expect it to be dead at the hole.

« **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2007, 03:14:44 PM »

Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on October 19, 2007, 03:11:16 PM

Mike,

A lot of players think so......

If this is a take off on the other thread, I repeat my answer is no, not all pin positions, but they should generally be able to fire at some point of the green and hold it with a good shot.

Jeff,

I would never take/steal/pillage from the other thread! I'm offended, my good man!!!

Actually, I wanted to move it away from specific architects and see what this group thinks. I also am thinking about a course I played this past weekend (DuPont in DE) and the 2nd green there with a front hole location.

Fellows...if you fire at a pin...any pin, and hit what you think is a solid shot, are you pissed if it doesn't stop soon after landing?

« **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2007, 03:15:06 PM »

Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on October 19, 2007, 03:11:16 PM

Mike,

A lot of players think so......

If this is a take off on the other thread, I repeat my answer is no, not all pin positions, but they should generally be able to fire at some point of the green and hold it with a good shot.

I think that is a given. It might not leave them with the best putt and they may be better off being off the green but below the hole, but yes they likely should be able to hold the green with a good shot from the fairway.

« **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2007, 03:16:24 PM »

Quote from: MPCirba on October 19, 2007, 03:14:44 PM

Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on October 19, 2007, 03:11:16 PM
Mike,

A lot of players think so......

If this is a take off on the other thread, I repeat my answer is no, not all pin positions, but they should generally be able to fire at some point of the green and hold it with a good shot.

Jeff,

I would never take/steal/pillage from the other thread! I'm offended, my good man!!!

Actually, I wanted to move it away from specific architects and see what this group thinks. I also am thinking about a course I played this past weekend (DuPont in DE) and the 2nd green there with a front hole location.

Fellows...if you fire at a pin...any pin, and hit what you think is a solid shot, are you pissed if it doesn't stop soon after landing?

Yes, especially with my 3 iron

« **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2007, 03:23:32 PM »

NO!

« **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2007, 03:25:25 PM »

Quote from: MPCirba on October 19, 2007, 03:14:44 PM

Fellows...if you fire at a pin...any pin, and hit what you think is a solid shot, are you pissed if it doesn't stop soon after landing?

No. I'm amazed.

And as to the question in your opening post: No.

« **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2007, 03:27:48 PM »

Mike,
Of course you should, with enough talent. Anyone other than a pro just can't get that done most of the time.

Now firing at the pin may not be in a straight line. A draw/hook or fade/slice is firing directly at the pin,right?

What about 10 yards short and rolling up? IS that firing directly?

Jerry

« **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2007, 04:51:46 PM »

Michael:

I certainly don't think one should be able to just fire right at any pin and have the ball stop very soon after landing (that sounds sort of like that cliche of throwing darts).

However, I do think really great golf architecture and really well designed greens can and do offer SOME way of getting a golf ball near a pin even if that takes real imagination and execution or even an approach from the correct strategic angle to make it happen.

« **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2007, 04:55:12 PM »

I think if there is no way at all to get at a hole location then that hole location is almost a strategic zero. That doesn't mean you should be able to get to it from any tee shot or not have to work the ball to get to it. Nor do I expect it to be easy. Nor do I expect to do it because I may feel the reward isn't worth the risk. But, what's the point if you can't ever get within 10-15 feet of the hole on a well executed series of shots? To me it would lack strategy, not thought is involved, and that hole location would be boring. Now I'm fine with trying to get at a pin several times and finally realizing that I have to hit too perfect a shot to give it a try anymore. But if even a perfect shot won't do I don't care for it.

« **Reply #11 on:** October 19, 2007, 04:56:59 PM »

"It amazed me during the 1991 Tour Championship that players would continually aim for flagsticks, ignoring the contour of greens, trying to get their ball close to the hole. Being a little off at the US Open or the big TOUR events (TPC, Memorial or Tour Championship) usually resulted in a missed green and a difficult recovery." -- David Eger, Ran's 1999 interview

« **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2007, 05:07:33 PM »

« **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2007, 05:08:09 PM »

Quote from: MPCirba on October 19, 2007, 03:14:44 PM

Fellows...if you fire at a pin...any pin, and hit what you think is a solid shot, are you pissed if it doesn't stop soon after landing?

Yes. It makes me crazy when I misjudge the situation that badly.

If I hit exactly the shot I intended, and it doesn't work out, then I figure I must have had a bad plan.

I hate when that happens--I hit enough bad shots, I don't need bad plans, too.

OTOH, when my chip nine iron landed 20 yards short of the green at Lundin GC last year, rolled up onto the surface and curled around the bunker to within 8 feet, I was ecstatic.

That was topped when my wife's teenaged caddie quietly said, "Shot."

<grin>

Ken

« **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2007, 05:42:22 PM »

Steve Kline:

Sorry to take you to task, but I'll provide an example where you are wrong: the 17th green at St. Andrews.

When the hole is behind the Road bunker, it's almost impossible to get at it with a second shot. But the hazards are so tight that it's essential to try and get it up on the plateau so you can get down in two from there ... a shot with a lot of risk and reward to it, even though it doesn't involve trying to get close to the hole.

« **Reply #15 on:** October 19, 2007, 05:53:18 PM »

I guess my contrarian bent is a figment of my imagination... agree with TEP and Tom Doak and most of all with Cary L

Oh what a world

rjs

« **Reply #16 on:** October 19, 2007, 06:01:39 PM »

Yes, you should be able to fire at any pin & expect it to stop. Of course, that doesn’t mean it is going to happen. Good architecture entices the foolish to do foolish things.

You should be able to do what you want………then face the consequences.

« **Reply #17 on:** October 19, 2007, 06:46:50 PM »

Quote from: MPCirba on October 19, 2007, 03:01:31 PM

...and expect that the ball will come to a stop within a 3-10 foot radius of the hole upon landing*?

*given reasonably firm green conditions

What in the world are you talking about?

« **Reply #18 on:** October 19, 2007, 08:59:22 PM »

In a normal round of golf I fire at probably 15 of 18 pins. Not because I think I'm that good, but just because I'm trying to give myself the best chance of hitting the most shots close. I know with every club 6 iron (195yds) and down if I hit it well the ball is going to stop and not spin back. I've switched to x-100 shafts and it has limited the backspin on my irons shots to next to nothing.
This is in rounds for fun. Tournament golf is a different depending on the format. I don't see the point when your playing casual golf to not aim at the pin. I'm a firm believer in the mentality of aiming at small targets. I'm not trying to hit the green I'm trying to hit it around the hole, pick a spot and go for it. For me that spot is usually the flag stick. This is how I keep focused when playing casual golf.

« **Reply #19 on:** October 19, 2007, 10:56:03 PM »

Tom:

You're right about 17 behind the bunker at TOC. I have played there but never with the pin dead behind the bunker (I've only played there twice). And for me if the pin was there I'm not sure how much I would enjoy it. Are their many others like that one though?

If the pin was back there and you were a below scratch golfer, what do you think the odds would be of having a birdie putt of less than 20 feet? It would seem to be pretty low to me, but you might be able to pull it off with a big drive down the right. I guess the play would be to hit a slinging draw and run it up the ridge. I can't remember if the green feeds that type of shot to the back left or not. I'm not saying anyone would try it because the risk might be too great.

I hope I was clear in that I don't think the ball should just hit and stop on the green, but that you should be able to get it close using ground contours, shot shape, etc. Having a ball hit and stop dead on the green is BORING to me. And it doesn't take nearly as much as skill.

« **Reply #20 on:** October 19, 2007, 11:04:20 PM »

cary:

Thank you for that comprehensive answer and explanation in post #12 even though you probably could've tightened up the wording and sentence structure some and made the post a bit more spare and to the point.

« **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2007, 12:03:10 AM »

Quote from: Steve Kline on October 19, 2007, 10:56:03 PM

Tom:

I hope I was clear in that I don't think the ball should just hit and stop on the green, but that you should be able to get it close using ground contours, shot shape, etc. Having a ball hit and stop dead on the green is BORING to me. And it doesn't take nearly as much as skill.

What is really the difference between the two? Flying it to the hole to get it close or flying it to a contour and letting it take the slope from there? Your still accomplishing the same thing. In both cases your hitting it to a point.

« **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2007, 06:44:02 AM »

Quote from: Sean Reehoorn on October 20, 2007, 12:03:10 AM

Quote from: Steve Kline on October 19, 2007, 10:56:03 PM
Tom:

I hope I was clear in that I don't think the ball should just hit and stop on the green, but that you should be able to get it close using ground contours, shot shape, etc. Having a ball hit and stop dead on the green is BORING to me. And it doesn't take nearly as much as skill.

What is really the difference between the two? Flying it to the hole to get it close or flying it to a contour and letting it take the slope from there? Your still accomplishing the same thing. In both cases your hitting it to a point.

There's a big difference, Sean. I think you have a picture in your mind of a high shot being hit to a spot on a contour, having it almost stop, but then begin moving in accordance to the contour. Think of a low spin, low trajectory shot towards a greenside contour, and watching the shot bounce and run up the slope and over and down towards a pin. Or, a pin that sits just behind a ledge, and the only way to get close is to hit past the pin so a slope brings the ball backwards towards the pin. I'm sure there are many ways to imagine a situation that would require something other than a shot that is hit directly towards a pin, and expecting the surface to be so soft and flat that the shot sticks close by.

Hope I'm understanding correctly,

Joe

« **Reply #23 on:** October 20, 2007, 07:43:12 AM »

Mike,

To answer your question, IMO the answer is no, and in fact the design should reflect this to maintain strategic interest. With the proper shot, it should be possible to get close to the majority of holes in a round, and that could include aerial or ground approaches. I also see nothing wrong with a couple of holes per round with no reasonable way to approach them that overcomes the risk.

That said, I believe that for the overwhelming majority of golfers, the answer to this question is an emphatic YES. I wonder if that factors into design, and if so, in what manner it forces design compromises. I would assume designs decisions are made with the preferences of the target market in mind, but also wonder how this affects public courses that go private and vice versa.

« **Reply #24 on:** October 20, 2007, 08:09:52 AM »

A question like the one on this thread makes me recall the thrill Bill Coore seemed to feel when he analyzed a particular way of approaching a left front pin position on Friars Head's #7 when it was under construction. He said although there were other ways of getting there one along the ground was really interesting. Then he said maybe no one will ever notice it or use it but at least it's there. I thought that was most interesting and it sure showed how much care he took to develop it.

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