During my most fabulous day spent with Michael Fay playing French Lick he mentioned that people who claim Ross greens are Redans or Capes are oft base.  Do you have any evidence or examples where Ross may have recreated the typical Raynor templates?

Who built the best par 3's...Ross or Raynor?  It is fresh in my mind but those at French Lick yesterday in huge winds were as good as I think a set can get.  I think the 16th at French Lick is the best par three in the midwest given the set up provided by the three prior threes.

No mention or reference to Raynor whatever anywhere in Ross letters, diaries. I'm sure he saw some of his work, but it never made a strong enough impression -- not that he writes much about any other architect, either.

Phil -

Ross was an expert just like Raynor at building great "Short" holes.  Those holes that are heavily guarded by bunkers and typically having a plateau green.  Wannamoisett's 3rd is a prime example.  There are so many others.

Ross actually wrote about the impracticality of the punch bowl green draining on the green surface, and used his 10th at Inverness in Toledo to demonstrate that a swale around the back of the green is better for drainage.

Overall, I think Ross started the trend, that continues to this day with Jack and Fazio of making a point to not go see anyone else's work, feeling there was nothing he could learn from it.  (Seriously) Only the earlier Philadelphia school really had that collaboration thing going on as they were feeling their way.

And, I don't think Ross had the chance, like Tillie, to go around changing others courses in the Depression. I think he just spent more time on his day job at Pinehurst.

Brad,

I was also thinking that Ross just didn't seem like the type to actively seek out others work, just from reading about him, including in your book.  While he traveled to a site to expand a course, did you find his schedule allowed him to randomly visit other courses?  It seemed from your book he scheduled stuff pretty tightly, and was "all business."

I am just speculating again, though.

Jim Nagle said:

"My nod would go to Ross.  Not to say Raynor did not create great Par 3's.  I believe as a composition of holes on any given course Ross had greater varierty - variety in length, alignment, routing, green size, green undulation, green size...."

Jimbo:

I noticed you mentioned green size twice. I suppose you think that element is quite important and needed to be underscored by a double mention. Do you think you should mention it again? Perhaps with the element of green size three's a charm?  

Oh, and just one last thing. How do you feel about green size?

Did Ross study Raynor? Probably not.

Did Raynor study Ross? Probably not.

But the Love Design Company, particularly Mark and Davis, apparently love the styles of both and have even sought to combine them in what THEY do.

I'll tell you I sure can think of easier styles to try to meld together than Ross and Raynor.

On the other hand, if some architect tried to combine the styles of Raynor and Flynn somehow they'd have a really hard time, not to mention they'd make a lifelong mortal enemy out of one Wayno Morrison.  

But maybe even Wayno is lightening up some on his opinion of Macdonald/Raynor or Raynor architecture. We were driving by the Southampton cemetary again last Sunday where both Macdonald and Raynor are buried within 20 yards of one another and I asked Wayno if he wanted me to turn into the cemetary so he could piss on their graves again.

To my total surprise he said no and so we kept on going west down Rte 27 on the way home to Philly and the land of Flynn.

I asked Wayno if he wanted me to turn into the cemetary so he could piss on their graves again.

There is one part of the above statement that I find beyond hilarious.  

Quote from: JC Jones on October 19, 2007, 01:46:50 PM

Quote from: TEPaul on October 19, 2007, 01:28:00 PM

I asked Wayno if he wanted me to turn into the cemetary so he could piss on their graves again.

There is one part of the above statement that I find beyond hilarious.  

JC,

If it's the word "again", you have clearly not been paying attention...

I understand his man crush on Flynn and his not so friendly attitude re CB/SR, I guess I must have missed the story where he pissed on their graves.

That is taking it to a whole new level, one that I find to be beyond funny.  

John,

I thought the 16th at the Hill Course was Raynoresque it its bunker styling, squared green and small thumbprint front middle (which I suspect was actually for drainage purposes as opposed to a pin location).  Vintage Ross lay-of-the-land green on the upslope whereas Raynor perhaps would have pushed up the front of the green to flatten the surface so it would not be wholly visible from the tee. The hole juxtaposes with the other short holes there which are not short at all and likely required drivers or 3-woods back in the day (or for yours truly today).  

If you're up for a replay I will take a day off and drive up in the next few weeks.  Please advise.

Mike

"TEP,
expand on the term "poofs" a bit if you could..."

Ok, Sully, it's a pretty interesting expansion.

Back around 2000 or so when I got Bill Coore here to look at that Ardrossan land for the potential move of GMGC, after a while I took him over to Gulph Mills so he could take a look at the kind of course the membership was used to.

I had to get him to the airport and we only had about 30 minutes to look at GMGC. So we got in a cart a flew down #1 and around. I told him the course was a 1916 Ross and he didn't say much until we flew by #8 green and down #9 at which point he said out of the blue that #8 green sure looked like a Maxwell green to him. That kind of blew me away because he was right even though I told him the course was Ross.

Then as we went by #10 green he said he had to get out and look at that surface and its contours. Again he said the green sure looked like Maxwell to him. He was right again.

He talked about some of the little low ridgy/moundy contours and when I asked him what he meant he said they looked sort of like Maxwell got a bit of air under the surface somehow and it just went "poof" and a little part of the green raised up.

So ever since I've called those cool little low ridgy/moundy contours in Perry Maxwell greens "poofs".  

There's a poof or two or three in the left 9th green at Pine Valley.

And there're a couple of really cool poofs in the 10th green of a course in Boston by Ross that I believe preceded Maxwell's career in architecture. The question is did Maxwell see them when he studied the courses around Boston before beginning his career?

"#1 at GMGC has some of those "poofs" as well, doesn't it?"

Nope.

That's a Ross green and none of the Ross greens at GMGC have poofs. Those who actually remember Ross say he was not as dour a guy as he looked to be but nevertheless it's not that hard to tell he was basically a poofless kind of guy.

There's a poof or two or three in the left 9th green at Pine Valley.

And there're a couple of really cool poofs in the 10th green of a course in Boston by Ross that I believe preceded Maxwell's career in architecture. The question is did Maxwell see them when he studied the courses around Boston before beginning his career?

This is ridiculous -- if you can't afford a digital camera let us know and we'll pass the hat!