After over a 10 year absence, I re-visited the Olde Course at Cobb's Creek for giggles on Friday morning.  Unfortunately, it was pretty much as I remembered it as the condition was the same as 1996.  But as many have said, the architecture is interesting.  Searching around the web I read that the following holes are in their original form:  1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 15, 16, and 18.  Is this true?

I'm wondering about the changes over the years at the others.  I can guess, for instance, that the tees for the par 3 #6 were on the other side of the creek from where they are now.  And I'm guessing that maybe the par 3 8th was much different than currently and perhaps had the teebox, if not most of the hole, on the land now occupied by that driving range or whatever the business is.  If that land was originally part of the course, then the 9th tee was probably much farther back than now.

But how is #5 different (did the creek perhaps change routings from a flood?)?  And what about #10?  That hole is very short, so perhaps at one point the tee box was right up against Rt 1?  Or has the green been moved?  I could go on and on but I'm guessing some of the usual suspects here can feed my hunger for Cobb's knowledge.  And if you want to see some pics I snapped from Friday, go here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/CobbsCreek_2007/index.html

Joe/Wayne,

You guys are getting ahead of my winter project;  that is, finally getting down to the Hagley Museum to trace the design evolution of Cobbs Creek.

Frankly, I want to see if it's possible for the course to be restored to the original design.

This is what I know so far;

According to Tillinghast, it was designed by Hugh Wilson, assisted by A. Haseltine Smith of Huntingdon Valley, another prominent amateur.  Tilly also gave much credit to the original Super for building the course, although I don't have his name in front of me right now.

The original plan was discarded and wholly revised because it was thought to have too many blind shots for a public course.  

The Karakung course opened in 1927 with 11 holes in play.   I suspect that similar to Juniata, which also opened in 1927, it was designed ("laid out" is the words used to describe) by Parks Engineer Alan Corson, with input from local pros like Edward Clarey (first pro at Juniata who also worked with Corson on FDR Park (FKA League Island GC)) and "the input of local golf architects", which at the time would have likely been guys like Flynn, Findlay, and perhaps Wilson before his untimely death in 1925.  All that being said, Corson was the guy who was ultimately responsible for the plan of Juniata, FDR, and probably Karakung.

The holes on the Cobbs Creek course that are original (according to Jim Finegan) as Wilson laid them out include 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 15, 16, and 18 and he claims four others are very similar.  

This is sometimes confusing because I've been there where the first two starting holes are on the clubhouse side of the road and also when the clubhouse side holes play as 17 & 18.   Finegan's numbering has the clubhouse side holes as 17 & 18.  

I also believe it's possible that some of the original course is part of today's Karakung course, although a trip  to the Hagley should indicate whether that was true.  

Yes, the pictures are sad indeed, particularly the condition of the bunkers on the par3 17th. It is, however, an interesting architectural study. I think 2, 3 ,10 &16 are very good holes as are many others. Unfortunately, local politics and money problems do not place a possible renovation high on a list for the next mayor. The courses can not be sold since they are part of Fairmount Park and the lease operator can not make improvements without financial concessions from the city. It's a Catch-22.

Anyone interested in a return visit can do so on September 29th.

Joe/Steve,

When Cobbs Creek was built in the teens, it was because enough civic-minded, prominent area golfers from the private clubs in the area (like Tillinghast, like Hugh Wilson, like Alex Findlay) drove the project, against the wishes of the City Council, the Fairmount Park Commission, and although the Mayor at the time gave lip-service to the idea, it took private initiative.

Why couldn't this happen today?   Are there no benefactors in Philadelphia with a high interest and civic duty interested in promoting golf in the city?   Are there no men of vision interested in creating something on the model of Bethpage Black or East Lake, and actually working to bring young urban dwellers into the game (the only demographic groups who are actually increasing in population)?  

There is more money floating around the country clubs of the suburban Philadelphia clubs than God has.  When things have reached a point where we'd be embarrassed to bring a visitor into the city and show him the state of disrepair of Hugh Wilson's only other gem; a course that has hosted everyone from Joe Louis and Connie Mack to Ty Cobb and Arnold Palmer to heads of state and visiting dignitaries, then I'm not sure how why the folks at GAP aren't feeling some responsibility to respond.

The kicker is that you have some wonderful local architects like Gil Hanse, Kelly Moran, Ron Forse, and others who would probably do the work for a song.

Mike:  What happened to the private company who bid on keeping CC alive and won the contract vs Phila City Control ?

Bill,

I don't know.   Last I heard I thought Meadowbrook was out and someone new was coming in, but that was about 18 months back and it seems the status quo remains.

Not that I'm blaming Meadowbrook.   As Steve mentions, there are forces that limit what they can do.  They have created a tremendous website, but not much more, unfortunately.  http://www.golfphilly.com/

However, someone needs to come up with a creative, imaginative win/win situation that changes the present dynamic.   I can't believe that interested private individuals can't work with Fairmount Park to create a self-sustaining model and restore the property.

It's like tonight, right now, we are faced with a tax increase to maintain our schools at the present levels.  But I am listening to a bucket of fireworks put on by something local that is costing me

It started at 08:19, and the constant fire is finally over at 8:30:00 with a barrage !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many dollars per minute, that could have gone into Valley Forge Golf Club ?

Okay, this is my last Cobbs post!  

Those pictures are the best shape that I have ever seen Cobb's in.   I played three years of high school matches at Cobbs and I have yet to see a blade of grass on any tee in person! When you played that back 9 in 1980, you made sure that you left your cash in the car!

Philly guys,

The Eagles will not win the Super Bowl, the Phillies may make the playoffs and lose in the first round, and Cobb's would be the third or fourth best PUBLIC Course in Bethpage, NY, and would barely make the Top 10 of PUBLIC COURSES on Long Island, which would mean that it may be a Top 100 course on Long Island!  

I have been hearing about the Cobbs renovation being sidetracked for almost 30 years by:

* Frank Rizzo did not play golf
* Wilson Goode bombing MOVE

Now we hear that Hugh Wilson may or may not have been involved at Cobbs!

This is a course crying out for  renovation not a restoration!

Liberty Golf Group is the new manager/lessee of the Philly Munis:

"Liberty Golf Group has acquired the Ed Oliver Golf Club, in the Greenhill section of Wilmington, Del., from Meadowbrook Golf Group. The lease purchase by the Philadelphia-based golf course  ownership and operating/managing company marks its initial golf course acquisition. Liberty Golf Group is led by Bud Connors, former Regional Vice President of Meadowbrook Golf and Club Corp."

www.libertygolfgroup.com

Perhaps a meeting with Mr. Connors can be arranged.

Why hasn't GAP been proactive in this situation?

How about the PA Golf Ass'n?

How about the Publinx?

Doesn't the USGA make grants?

How about Cobbs Creek GC presented by Comcast?

 

(Are we not men?   )

We are GeeCAh.  

Joe:  That collage (?sp) of pictures was an excellent testimony that work has to be put into Cobbs.  It would appear we need "chainsaw Greenwood" back in Philly !

I normally only post course photos on my web page (as well as submitting them to GolfArchitecturePictures.com) that are of good quality and show off both the layout as well as condition.  But I've made an exception with Cobb's b/c it is just so disheartening to see the course in this state.

Perhaps I'm more motivated then ever to rattle some cages as this summer I made my first visit ever to Bethpage.  I liked it so much that I went back a 2nd time a fews week later.  But let me say right off the bat so there is no confusion:  the two courses at Cobb's can never match Bethpage State Park.  Never.  However, is there any reason why the city couldn't show some vision and do a complete re-work of both courses?  And as Mike indicated, I'd like to know the original design of the Olde Course for reference sake.  Then hire somebody of stature to make something very nice, keeping as much of the original layout's character in tact.  Have you ever looked at the Google image of this area?  It is here:

http://tinyurl.com/yo7j92

It sure seems there is plenty of other land, mostly forest, to be utilized that I'm just guessing the city owns.  I'm sure there are many things to consider, but just off the cuff I would dream of first making the Olde Course much better and use whatever land available that is needed.  Then also overhaul Karakung and make it better.  Gosh, I'm really on a roll now:  get the local community involved (and FirstTee?) so kids can have a real opportunity to play.  Have the Olde Course be so nice to be able to charge 75 bucks on a weekend to play it and have that high price help to subsidize Karakung for those learning the game and w/ less capital.  Start a caddy program at the Olde Course too.... try to get a Champions Tour event at the Olde Course, or minimum lean on Excelon to come there with Furyk's tourney.  My oh my, the possibilities....

Ok, let's go!  

If we can keep this discussion in the forefront then perhaps someone will pick up the ball...

Is Frank Rizzo still alive and does he play golf in Florida?!!  

I am sorry for being so tough on my Philly friends, but the reason that BB works is that it is surrounded by 4 other good to very good courses. They could/can afford to treat BB in a special way because the bulk of their base golfers are served by the other 4 courses at Bethpage.

I would never want Cobbs to charge $75 because then they take away from their base of golfers including all the high schools that use it for a home club. The Prep kids can probably handle that price, but the West Catholic kids (if it is still there) probably cannot. Karakung is not even close to being a second or back-up course to Cobbs.

I am not saying that it can't be better, but at some point it comes down to price and who pays for it? Is the renovation for a bunch of GCA geeks or the base of golfers that it serves?

My suggestion is to ask the Philly Publinks Club

http://www.phillypublinks.com/

they are the guys that play the course.

Paul Cornely is my cousin's husband and can smoke me and a number of others here on the golf course at Cobbs:

paulc@phillypublinks.com

Mike,

While I believe Hugh Wilson was on the committee that oversaw the development of Cobb's Creek GC, perhaps the chairman of the commitee, are you sure he was the designer of the course?  I remember Steve Sayers (hey, where's he been?) saying he came across an article that cast that long-held belief in doubt.  Now Pete Trenham says the same thing.  Hmmm...not saying you're wrong, just wondering.

By the way, if you call the Hagley, they'll mail you the photos at a reasonable charge.  You don't have to go down there.  I'll split the expenses with you if you like.

Wayne,

I'm certainly interested in seeing what Steve and Pete have come across re: Wilson's involvement.  I'm really curious.

In the meantime, I'm heading to Arkansas for two days...when I get back I'll try to dig up the extemporaneous sources I have.

Let's talk Wednesday...and get some aerials.  

I have some other stuff somewhere, but thought this was interesting from the "GolfPhilly" site.  

I do give them credit for at least researching their history.   They've dug up a few other tidbits on some of the other courses, as well.

"Construction of Philadelphia's first public golf course began in 1915 and opened to the public on May 29, 1916, with the President of the Fairmount Park Commission, E.T. Stotesbury, making the ceremonial first drive. According to a contemporary newspaper account, "Much credit is due to Hugh Wilson of the Merion Cricket Club, who drew the design for the course, and to A.B. Smith of the Huntingdon Valley Cricket Club and Jesse T. Vodges, Chief Engineer of the Park, who supervised the actual construction of the links.""