[Tim Bert]

Tim Bert:

What are the five hardest holes at the resort for your group of bogey golfers?

To set the table:
Three of us in the group are basically bogey golfers at the Bandon Resort even though our handicaps were low teens during the trips.  The fourth golfer was a 4 or 5 on the trips and shot high 70s or low 80s most rounds (except for a few blow-ups including a 100 and 96 at Bandon Trails his first day out - worst golf I've ever seen him play - he followed it up with an 82 at the Trails in 2007.)

The hardest holes are still a bit skewed to Trails for a couple reasons:
1. Fewest rounds played so a blow-up skews things more there
2. Our low handicapper played two terrible rounds there
3. In 2005, one of the rounds we played at Trails was the fiercest wind I've seen at the resort (sample size of about 20 total rounds.)

For this reason, I'm going to give you the hardest and easiest three at each of the courses instead of giving you the overall 5 hardest.

All rounds played from the green tees for all golfers.

Bandon Trails - Hardest
1. #4 - group average 6.42.  It's in the top 10 difficulty at the resort for all four players.
2. #1 - 6.17.  #4 and #1 also tied as the most difficult holes at the entire resort for our low handicapper.
3. #16 - 6.83.  These three holes are the only three at the resort where our group averages double bogey or worse.

Bandon Trails - Easiest
1. #9 - 5.42.  Easiest hole at the resort for our group.  All four players are better than bogey golf on this one.
2. #5 - 3.5.
3. #11 - 4.75

Bandon Dunes - Hardest
1. #5 - 5.73.  No surprise here on the surface, though if you dig a bit deeper, our group actually plays it fairly well with one exception.  One golfer in the group (though I won't mention his name because Alan Gard participates here) averages worse than triple bogey over the course of 7 rounds on this hole, which tanks our group average.  It's not even amongst the 20 most difficult at the resort for the other three of us.
2. #12 - 4.59.  I play this one okay with an average of 4.  I can't tell you how many guys in my group have spent time in that tiny bunker.  Me - I just bail wide left and chip up!
3. #11 - 5.41.

Bandon Dunes - easiest
1. #10 - 4.48.  My group almost plays this hole at level par if you remove me from the numbers.  I haven't enjoyed the same success, though I figured it out and was much improved in 2007.
2. #9 - 5.59.  Easiest hole at the resort for me.  An eagle and a birdie in 7 rounds have helped me offset 3 bogeys to keep it at level par.
3. #6 - 3.68.  No blow-ups here is the key.  Group has nothing worse than a double-bogey in 22 tries.

Pacific Dunes - hardest
1. #4 - 6.0.  We've made a real mess of this hole and it has always been downwind so it is not playing the scorecard yardage.  There have been some good scores posted here, but probably as many blow-ups as on any hole at the resort.
2. #1 - 5.5.  The tee shot has confounded us here.  This is the hardest hole at the resort for one of the mid-handicappers.
3. #16 - 5.43.  No birdies and lots of 6s, 7s, and 8s to offset the pars and bogeys.

Pacific Dunes - easiest
1. #10 - 3.63.  This hole played as the easiest at the entire resort in 2007, aided by one round where 3 of 4 players birdied the hole (everyone by me.)
2. #9 - 4.73.  The upper green definitely plays tougher for us.  When you put the pin on the lower green we just all blast away drives and enjoy the bounces down near the green.  Aiming becomes much more of an issue for the upper.
3. #6 - 4.77.  This is probably a surprise to some.  Alan really helps our numbers here (since I called him out on BD #5, I'll give him some credit here.)  In his first 8 rounds on this hole, he had 5 pars and 3 bogeys.  It seems like he always hits the tee shot left and then sticks a wedge on the green even though it seems impossible to stop it over that bunker on the narrow sliver green.  

Let me know if you'd like to see anything else.  My dork scale is going through the roof this evening.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Tim,

Interesting to me, as besides the dork factor my handicap is similar to your 10-12 crowd.  Most of the results reflect my experience.

I'm surprised #15 at Bandon Dunes is not rated higher in difficulty than #12.  I found 15 very difficult into the wind.  And it's always been easy for me to get big numbers at 16 and 17 at BD.

I always felt comfortable with the tee shot at PD #16, so that one wouldn't rate as high in difficulty for me.  Surprised #13 and #2 are missing from the difficult list.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

Thanks for your post.

I'm surprised #4 is the hardest hole at Bandon Trails, but I guess it's into the wind and most people freak out at a blind second shot into the wind.  Your group should probably be laying up on the second and there wouldn't be very many doubles.

As for Pacific Dunes, I'm only surprised that the much-maligned #12 and #15 (which certain experts have told me needed more bunkering) are not as easy as everyone thinks they are ... especially considering that par fives are usually the easiest holes on any course.  #13 would probably be in there if they didn't scoot the tees forward 90% of the time, but from where they normally play it in the summer, I've had a lot of success with my own 10 handicap.  For myself, the hole I score the worst on might be #3, but that's partly just a mental block now.

[Jason Topp]

These numbers show how wind dependent the difficulty of holes is.  Here is my personal experience layered on top of your group with a south wind (no numbers):

Trails - Hardest
1. #4 - group average 6.42.  It's in the top 10 difficulty at the resort for all four players.  (Driver, partial wedge, difficult 3 easy 4)

2. #1 - 6.17.  #4 and #1 also tied as the most difficult holes at the entire resort for our low handicapper.  (Still tough)

3. #16 - 6.83.  These three holes are the only three at the resort where our group averages double bogey or worse.  (reachable in 2 downwind - once with a 4 iron and once with a hybrid)

Bandon Trails - Easiest
1. #9 - 5.42.  Easiest hole at the resort for our group.  All four players are better than bogey golf on this one. (probably middling difficulty)

2. #5 - 3.5.  (no different)

3. #11 - 4.75  (This was one of the most difficult holes I played with long iron/wood approach with water in play if you leave it right)

Bandon Dunes - Hardest

1. #5 - 5.73.  No surprise here on the surface, though if you dig a bit deeper, our group actually plays it fairly well with one exception.  One golfer in the group (though I won't mention his name because Alan Gard participates here) averages worse than triple bogey over the course of 7 rounds on this hole, which tanks our group average.  It's not even amongst the 20 most difficult at the resort for the other three of us.  (its still tough downwind)

2. #12 - 4.59.  I play this one okay with an average of 4.  I can't tell you how many guys in my group have spent time in that tiny bunker.  Me - I just bail wide left and chip up!  (still tough)

3. #11 - 5.41.  (driver - wedge - I think I birdied both times)

Bandon Dunes - easiest

1. #10 - 4.48.  My group almost plays this hole at level par if you remove me from the numbers.  I haven't enjoyed the same success, though I figured it out and was much improved in 2007.  (still relatively easy)

2. #9 - 5.59.  Easiest hole at the resort for me.  An eagle and a birdie in 7 rounds have helped me offset 3 bogeys to keep it at level par.  (much tougher into a south wind but one professional I played with still reached it)

3. #6 - 3.68.  No blow-ups here is the key.  Group has nothing worse than a double-bogey in 22 tries. (probably about the same)

Pacific Dunes - hardest

1. #4 - 6.0.  We've made a real mess of this hole and it has always been downwind so it is not playing the scorecard yardage.  There have been some good scores posted here, but probably as many blow-ups as on any hole at the resort. (probably one of the toughest into the wind)


2. #1 - 5.5.  The tee shot has confounded us here.  This is the hardest hole at the resort for one of the mid-handicappers. (I think it is pretty tough with the wind, at least from the back tees for me)

3. #16 - 5.43.  No birdies and lots of 6s, 7s, and 8s to offset the pars and bogeys.  (this one is alot easier into the wind with your 2nd)


Pacific Dunes - easiest

1. #10 - 3.63.  This hole played as the easiest at the entire resort in 2007, aided by one round where 3 of 4 players birdied the hole (everyone by me.)  (easy from the top tees, a bear from the 200 yard tees)


2. #9 - 4.73.  The upper green definitely plays tougher for us.  When you put the pin on the lower green we just all blast away drives and enjoy the bounces down near the green.  Aiming becomes much more of an issue for the upper.  (into the wind the carry on the prefered line to the lower is daunting off the tee, not sure which green plays tougher)  


3. #6 - 4.77.  This is probably a surprise to some.  Alan really helps our numbers here (since I called him out on BD #5, I'll give him some credit here.)  In his first 8 rounds on this hole, he had 5 pars and 3 bogeys.  It seems like he always hits the tee shot left and then sticks a wedge on the green even though it seems impossible to stop it over that bunker on the narrow sliver green.  (I think I made X, X, after tee shots left)

[Richard Choi]

As for Pacific Dunes, I'm only surprised that the much-maligned #12 and #15 (which certain experts have told me needed more bunkering) are not as easy as everyone thinks they are ... especially considering that par fives are usually the easiest holes on any course.  

I would argue that par 5's are only easy for low handicappers. For mid-handicappers, to get a par on par 5's, you have to hit 3 solid shots in a row. I don't know about anyone else, but as a mid-handicapper, the chances of hitting three good shots in a row are pretty low for me.

[Russ Miller]

Thanks Tim, this is pretty interesting stuff.  I wish there was more information like this out there (i.e., showing how average golfers score on various holes at a course).  Here are some interesting things to me that I noticed from your statistics:

Trails:  The hole that plays the easiest (at the whole resort) for your group is listed on the card as the Number 1 handicap hole, and the hole you list as 3rd easist is listed on the card as the Number 4 handicap hole.

Dunes:  The hole that plays 2nd hardest for your group is listed as the 18 handicap hole.

I have never played at the resort.  Is there a reason that these holes play so much differently for your group than their handicap suggests they should?

[Ken Moum]

Is there a reason that these holes play so much differently for your group than their handicap suggests they should?

Stroke indexes are not supposed tobe an indication of how hard a given hole is relative to others on the course.

The lowest stroke index holes are supposed to be those where a person getting a stroke is likely to need it from a better player.

That often means they will be given on "easy" holes like middle-length par fives.

Here's how the USGA Handicap Manual suggests allocating strokes:

17-1. Discretion of Committee

The following procedure is recommended for allocating handicap strokes. The procedure is not mandatory because it has minimal effect on handicaps. Good judgment is of prime importance because no formula can cover conditions on every golf course. The Handicap Committee should review the course hole by hole, bearing in mind that the basic principle is to equalize the abilities of players at different handicap levels. Men's and women's stroke allocations will usually be different because their needs to equalize holes will come on different holes. Common sense will dictate how closely the recommendations may be followed. A handicap stroke should be an equalizer and should be available on a hole where it most likely will be needed by the higher-handicapped player to obtain a half in singles or four-ball match play. Difficulty in making par on a hole is not an effective indicator of the need for a stroke.

In allocating the order of handicap strokes to the 18 holes of a golf course, consideration should be given to the likelihood of the strokes being equalizers rather than winning strokes. To accomplish this objective, the following guidelines are recommended:

 a. Basis of Allocation

Allocate strokes based on play of the course from the tee markers used most often by the majority of club members.

Allocate the first stroke to the hole on the first nine on which the higher-handicapped player most needs a stroke as an equalizer and the second stroke to the hole on the second nine on which the higher-handicapped player most needs a stroke as an equalizer. Alternate in this manner for the full 18 holes.

Generally the longer the hole, the greater the need for the higher-handicapped player to receive a stroke.


17-2. Allocation Based on Scores

A mathematical method for allocating strokes, based on the principle that a handicap stroke should be an equalizer when an average or high-handicapped player plays a low-handicapped player, follows. This procedure may be applied separately with men's scores and women's scores.

Note: Even when using this method, the Handicap Committee must give priority to the considerations of 17-1. See step (vii) below.

Collect about 200 hole-by-hole scores of a group of players (Group A) with a Course Handicap not exceeding 8 strokes for men and 14 strokes for women. A club having a limited number of low-handicapped players may use 200 scores from 25 percent of its players with the lowest Course Handicap. These scores should not be adjusted by Equitable Stroke Control.

Average the score for each hole for Group A, and average the Course Handicap of the players in Group A.
Collect about 200 hole-by-hole scores of a middle- to high-handicapped group of players (Group B). The average of the Course Handicap of each player in Group B should be 15 to 20 strokes higher than the average for each player in Group A. It is preferable for the Course Handicap of each player in Group B to range from 20 to 28 strokes for men and from 26 to 40 strokes for women. These scores should not be adjusted by Equitable Stroke Control.

Average the score for each hole for Group B and average the Course Handicap of each player in Group B.

Determine the difference in the average scores for each group on each hole by subtracting the average score of Group A from the average score of Group B.

List the holes in order from 1 through 18 with corresponding Group A average scores, Group B average scores and average score difference. Rank the holes with the hole having the highest average score difference first, and so on. The hole ranked number 1 is the hole on which the higher-handicapped player most needs a stroke. Continue the rankings through 18.

Modify the rankings of the holes, as based on average-score differences in accordance with Section 17-1b on distribution of strokes, and in accordance with Notes 1 and 2 below.
Note 1: Occasionally, this method will result in one hole (Hole A) ranked ahead of another hole (Hole B). The committee believes that Hole B should be ranked ahead of Hole A. The committee may first determine the average range by subtracting the average-score difference of the 18th ranked hole from the average-score difference of the first ranked hole and divide the result by 18. If the difference between the average-score differences of Holes A and B is no greater than the average range, it would be appropriate for the committee to rank Hole B ahead of Hole A.

Note 2: A hole with a water hazard that presents a significant problem for high-handicapped players may be ranked as the first or second handicap-stroke hole based on its average-score difference. The committee believes that this ranking is not justified when players of comparable ability are competing. In this instance, the committee may downgrade the ranking of the hole. The committee should always use good judgment in deciding what will give fair results.

[Russ Miller]

kmoum - Thanks for the info.  I'd say the vast majority of golfers (myself included, before your post) don't know what hole handicap means.  I will now considered myself enlightened - at least as to this subject.

[Ken Moum]

kmoum - Thanks for the info.  I'd say the vast majority of golfers (myself included, before your post) don't know what hole handicap means.  I will now considered myself enlightened - at least as to this subject.

One of the reasons for that is the number of courses that do wrong. My home course has a 210-yard par three as #1 handicap hole. Which is silly.

OTOH, the USGA does suggest that for four-ball competition, a stroke allocation based on difficulty is appropriate. I think there ought to be two cards, one for matches, and one for four-ball.

Ken

[Richard Boult]

kmoum - Thanks for the info.  I'd say the vast majority of golfers (myself included, before your post) don't know what hole handicap means.  I will now considered myself enlightened - at least as to this subject.

One of the reasons for that is the number of courses that do wrong. My home course has a 210-yard par three as #1 handicap hole. Which is silly.

OTOH, the USGA does suggest that for four-ball competition, a stroke allocation based on difficulty is appropriate. I think there ought to be two cards, one for matches, and one for four-ball.

Ken

kmoum, I'm also enlightened by your post. I always assumed the hole handicaps simply rated each hole from hardest to easiest.

However, I don't understand why you say your 210 yard par 3 being rated #1 is silly.  Seems like the average score differential for a scratch vs bogie golfer would be pretty high on such a hole. Or is it a bogie hole for both and therefore a small differential?

[Ken Moum]

However, I don't understand why you say your 210 yard par 3 being rated #1 is silly.  Seems like the average score differential for a scratch vs bogie golfer would be pretty high on such a hole. Or is it a bogie hole for both and therefore a small differential?

You have it exactly right.

At 210, it's a fairly easy 4, but a brutal 3.

On courses that have done this correctly, it's not unheard of for a shortish par five to get a stroke before a long par four.

They are all par 4 1/2s, so depending no how they are defended, sometimes the higher handicapers will have more trouble with a five par than a similar length par four.

It gets even more complicated when opposite sexes play a match. My wife and I have played each other a lot, and we finally decided to ignore the stroke allocations. The problem was that on several stroke holes her tee was so far up that she didn't need the stroke.

So, she gets her strokes on long holes where there isn't much difference between the tees. And there's one par four where she has to lay up off the tee, leaving a long second, so she wants one there, too.

K

[Richard Boult]

sounds like assigning hole handicaps has as much of a chance of being done accurately as are course ratings/slopes and top 100 course ratings  we need more Jason Topps keeping such detailed stats!

[Tim Bert]

Tim,

Interesting to me, as besides the dork factor my handicap is similar to your 10-12 crowd.  Most of the results reflect my experience.

I'm surprised #15 at Bandon Dunes is not rated higher in difficulty than #12.  I found 15 very difficult into the wind.  And it's always been easy for me to get big numbers at 16 and 17 at BD.

I always felt comfortable with the tee shot at PD #16, so that one wouldn't rate as high in difficulty for me.  Surprised #13 and #2 are missing from the difficult list.

Bandon Dunes #15 plays as the fourth toughest at BD for our group.  It is a much more terrifying hole for me from the tee.  I was surprised to see that I only play it slightly worse than #12 (less than a 1/4 stroke difference.)  Everyone else in my group played it equal or better than #12, which is also a surprise.  #16 and #17 are pretty much middle of the pack for us.

I don't think anyone in our group found the tee shot at PD #16 to be the problem.  In fact, we often joke about the "land of 1,000 divots" where all tee shots seem to land regardless of club choice.  It's the approach that kills us.  It's never more than a wedge and often a half wedge, but we can't seem to get balls to stop on that green.  For all the bad press #14 BT green gets from some lower handicappers, I'd much rather hit my half wedge at that green.  

[Tim Bert]

Tim:

Thanks for your post.

I'm surprised #4 is the hardest hole at Bandon Trails, but I guess it's into the wind and most people freak out at a blind second shot into the wind.  Your group should probably be laying up on the second and there wouldn't be very many doubles.

As for Pacific Dunes, I'm only surprised that the much-maligned #12 and #15 (which certain experts have told me needed more bunkering) are not as easy as everyone thinks they are ... especially considering that par fives are usually the easiest holes on any course.  #13 would probably be in there if they didn't scoot the tees forward 90% of the time, but from where they normally play it in the summer, I've had a lot of success with my own 10 handicap.  For myself, the hole I score the worst on might be #3, but that's partly just a mental block now.

My score would have definitely benefited from laying up on #4, but it is hard to know what club to pull for a lay-up (and it is hard to refrain) when you are already inside 150 yards on a hole.  You are correct that we played it into the wind, and into a particularly stiff wind one round.  In that windy round, we came away with two doubles and two triples in the group.

Pacific Dunes #12 plays tougher than #3 or #18 for us, which I found interesting.  One of the guys in our group just blows up consistently on that hole - not sure why.  He's got a 9, an 8, and two 7s in 6 tries, so he really skews our results.  

Pacific Dunes #15 plays a tad bit easier, though it is still middle of the pack.  Each of the four of us has at least one score of 8 or worse on this hole.  I've seen some scores of 7 or 8 after we've been greenside in 2.  The chips and pitches can be tricky there.

Pacific Dunes #13 is sort of middle of the pack as well.  On most of our rounds, the tee box has been right around the 390 mark.  For whatever reason, I almost always get off the tee strongly on that hole, but the approach really gets tough.  It's another hole where I'd benefit from the occasional lay-up shot, but the par I made my first time out combined with the good drives always gets me going for it.

As a set, the par 3s are the only ones where our group averages better than bogey golf at Pacific Dunes.

We are also slightly better than bogey on the par 5s as a set at Bandon Dunes.  

[Wyatt Halliday]

Average of 8 players:

(1) #7 Pacific Dunes
(2) #16 Pacific Dunes
(3) #11 Bandon Dunes
(4) #4 Bandon Trails
(5) #4 Pacific Dunes

[Joe Bentham]

can't say I see usefulness in any of these numbers.  Its like people with bad eyes sharing glasses....  

[Tim Bert]

can't say I see usefulness in any of these numbers.  Its like people with bad eyes sharing glasses....  

The lack of usefulness in these numbers is not in question, though I don't agree with you for the reason.  The usefulness would come from a stastically valid study involving a large sample size.  

I think Doak could learn a lot about his design if he had a post-mortem study of every score on every hole by every range of handicapper that ever played one of his courses.

If he built all of his courses for your skill level, then he wouldn't have a job and you wouldn't have a playing field because there aren't enough of you.

I was just having a little fun sharing the numbers.  It's interesting to me to see how others of the same skill level play holes at a course I've visited.  We send enough time speculating what holes are harder or easier, so I though I'd throw some numbers on the table in a rare case where I've got them.

You were much less cynical when I was a paying client, and I apreciate that because I certainly wouldn't have stuck with you for three days if your attitude were the same as it is on this site.  And you were one of the best caddies I've had, so I would have missed out.

[George Pazin]

I think Doak could learn a lot about his design if he had a post-mortem study of every score on every hole by every range of handicapper that ever played one of his courses.

This is a really interesting observation, I hope you don't mind that I'm going to start a new thread with it!

[Adam Clayman]

Whoa, Tim.

I don't think Joe was belitteling your efforts or your numbers.

What I think he is questioning is the relevance of ease, or difficulty, in identifying great golf course architecture.

[Tim Bert]

Hi Adam,

There was certainly no Herculean effort involved in typing the numbers into a spreadsheet, so I wasn't concerned about any belitteling of my effort.

I took the analogy "Its like people with bad eyes sharing glasses....  " to mean that you can't learn anyhting about the architecture or relative ease or difficulty of holes by focusing on the results of mediocre golfers.

I would view this exercise as more of people with less than perfect vision discussing their poor vision and how it impacts them relative to those with 20/20 vision.

Didn't intend any offense to Joe and I apologize if it came off that way.
 

[Joe Bentham]

Tim
Sorry my cynicism got you down but I would view this exercise as an example of where American golf has gone bad.  Medal play is only about 100 years old.  So what did people do before they started carting around pads and pencils to track their medal scores?  They had more fun playing the game of golf.
A lot of the reason high handicappers are high handicappers is because the majority of them spend way to much time worrying about their score relative to par.  25 handicappers trying to set course records.  All it adds up to is more frustration and less enjoyment.  
Next time you and your friends come to Bandon play at least one round without scorecards.  Play two man best ball matches.  I'll bet you'll have more fun and you might even play better.

[Jimmy Chandler]

So what did people do before they started carting around pads and pencils to track their medal scores?  They had more fun playing the game of golf.

Joe --

I couldn't agree with you more that people would have more fun in match play, but then you said

A lot of the reason high handicappers are high handicappers is because the majority of them spend way to much time worrying about their score relative to par.  25 handicappers trying to set course records.

You've got to be kidding, right? High handicappers suck at golf because they have lousy swings, don't understand how to play the game, and can't get up and down or putt.  If they play match instead of medal they may have more fun, they may therefore improve by a stroke or two, but they would still be high handicappers.  People who hope just to hit the ball in the fairway 200 yards -- a typical 25 handicap -- are hoping to shoot 90, not break any course records.

And while I agree that match play is more fun, I don't see anything wrong with keeping scores/records as long as you move along quickly (you could always pick up and record where you picked up and still have legit stats).

I continue to find the attitudes on this site towards high handicappers amusing and completely out of whack with reality.  This is not just directed at you, but this post is one of many.  I think good golfers can't conceive or remember what golf is like for people with terrible swings.  It's a different experience entirely.

[Tim Bert]

Hey Joe - We play two man best ball 36 hole matches every day we are there.  We still keep score, but the focus is just as much on the match as the score.  We've also played alternate shot in the evening and that was fun too.

We've never gone out there and had a bad time.

Okay, I MIGHT have been a little angry after an 8,5,5,6 finsih at Pacific Dunes the very last time I played it because I CAN'T break 90 on that course and I shot 91 with that finish.  

Other than that little incident, I go out there to have the best time of my golfing life and it never fails to meet epectations.

[Joe Bentham]

Jimmy--
Obviously high handicappers struggle because of their swing deficiencies, thanks for pointing that out.  But almost none understand course management or have realistic expectations.  The average golfer doesn't start his day out trying to break 100, regardless of their handicap.  Golfers take low percentage shots as opposed to the smart play because they think they have to try and make 'par'.  They end up making way bigger numbers then they would have if they had played it smart.  Matches against golfers of like ability (or better golfers with an appropriate number of strokes) should change the mentality and allow the golfer to play more within themselves.
One of the reasons that golf's growth rate is so stagnant is its difficulty.  I think a shift in attitude about scoring would go along way in improving the overwhelming majority of golfers enjoyment level.
This discussion is more evidence that American golf has lost its way and further proof that CB Macdonald is rolling over in his grave.

[Joe Bentham]

Hey Joe - We play two man best ball 36 hole matches every day we are there.  We still keep score, but the focus is just as much on the match as the score.

Tim-
Keeping a medal score while playing a match would get you booed out of the British isles.

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