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Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« on: August 27, 2007, 05:11:32 PM »
They are number 1 and 2 on the GD list, with Pine Valley the perennial #1.  Shinnecock gets more love on GCA, or so it seems to me.  This may be because the Flynn lobby is so strong and there is no countervailing Pine Valley lobby, perhaps because Crump only did one course.

In any case, if you were a rater which is better - Pine Valley or Shinnecock Hills?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2007, 05:21:26 PM »
Day in and day out...Shinnecock!

Competition...Pine Valley!


Splitting some serious hair here though...

Matt_Ward

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 05:25:34 PM »
Phil:

For what it's worth -- read Doak's assessment on SH on "Confidential Guide." Believe it sums up things nicely.

SH has the capacity to test the world's premier players with little hands-on help from man. Not to take anything away from PV but if one were to judge a course from its overall wherewithal to handle all types of play then SH gets the clear edge in my book.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2007, 05:32:26 PM »
I have played PV more than SH.  I prefer PV.  It could be because it suits my game more, but I enjoy it more and does not have any weak holes.  SH has some holes I really don't care for, like 9, 13 & 18.  
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2007, 07:04:16 PM »
That's like asking which is a better animal, a cheetah or a horse?  How can anyone rank these two courses?  One can describe their positive and negative qualities; and one can prefer one over the other; but they certainly should not be compared as better or worse, just different.  

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2007, 07:21:02 PM »
Matt,

I have never seen the Confidential Guide and am just as likely to buy an original of the Dead Sea Scrolls given the price.  I assume they are both a Doak 10.


jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2007, 07:56:51 PM »
I've got to believe that most who think Shinnecock is better have never played Pine Valley. Then maybe they are just New Yorkers. I don't think it is even close.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Matt_Ward

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 08:31:33 PM »
Jim Lewis:

I have played both and to answer your second question -- I'm certainly not a New Yawwker. ;D

Phil B:

Yes, both are rated 10 by Doak. To paraphrase Doak -- SH is one of those very few courses that can handle the average golfer and the world class player. Not many can do both.

Clearly, both courses are superstars and forever members of the top ten in the USA -- throw in Oakmont and Cypress Point as well for my money.

wsmorrison

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 08:46:02 PM »
Tommy W,

Interesting selection of holes that you don't care for.  I like every hole at Shinnecock Hills, and find 9,13 and 18 very good.  Heck, in my opinion the 9th is one of the great par 4s in golf.  But there's room for many opinions and I surely respect yours.

PV holes that are a notch below the others include 11 and 14.  

Sully,

You probably know the two courses better than just about anyone on this site other than Tom Paul.  I am intrigued why you think day to day you give the nod to Shinnecock and for tournaments you select Pine Valley.  I would think for a golfer of your skill, you would select SH for competitive play.  Wait till the green expansions are done, you might change your mind.  Let's get together and go over the ongoing work.

Jim L,

Not even close?  I don't know why you say that, especially since we are dealing in the subjective and not the objective.  I could never be taken for a New Yorker but I think Shinnecock Hills a slightly better course than Pine Valley.  I like Merion better than PV as well but they are so close in my mind that there is no real discernible difference.  Different courses for different golfers.

In what way(s) is PV superior to SH?  A strong statement like that needs to be explored further.

In a Ran Morrissett match play scenario, I judge PV versus SH thusly:

1. even     10. SH
2. PV        11. SH
3. SH        12. SH
4. even     13. PV
5. even     14. SH
6. SH        15. even
7. even     16. even
8. even     17. PV
9. SH        18. PV (barely)

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2007, 08:50:42 PM »
PV vs SH.


Hmmm. Is that like Porsches vs Ferraris?  ;)  


 





"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mike Sweeney

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2007, 08:54:57 PM »
I think if you compare the Par 3's and 5's at each, it is pretty even. However Pine Valley wins on its Par 4's, all of which are very good to great and many you have never seen before in any way or anyplace.

I am also a sucker for "retreat golf".

John Kavanaugh

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2007, 08:59:06 PM »
I was a Shinnecock guy before Sebonack was built..now I am a Pine Valley man.

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2007, 09:19:25 PM »
OK, I'll retract the comment about it not being close, since I can't prove it.

Let me say up front that I have never played Cypress Point. I think I have played of of the other legitimate candidates for America's best course. Of all the courses I've played, Pine Valley is the only one that if I got an invitation to play tomorrow, I would drop whatever I'm doing and catch the next plane or drive the 9 hours to play again. For all the others I would need at least a few days advance notice.

Using that scientific method,  I judge no course to be close to Pine Valley.

I also like Shinnecock and Merion a lot, and I rate them both in my top 5. It is rarely mentioned, but the one negative that I find with Merion is that you have to cross a heavily traveled street twice in each round.

BTW, speaking of Ran, I just spoke to him and his family at a local restaurant. I never have bought his hole-by-hole match play as a reliable method of comparing courses.

Jim
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

wsmorrison

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2007, 09:26:10 PM »
Mike, let me think about the par 4s at PV vs. SH and try to compare with length in mind.  

The 1st holes are even.  The 2nd at PV is unique and great but not better than the 10th at SH, let's call it even.  The 4th at PV is long but not great, certainly SH's 12th is a far better hole.  The 6th at PV is an excellent hole though the back end is a little bit like the 1st.  I'll give it a slight nod over the 13th at SH.  The 8th at PV is an excellent short par 4.  Let's just consider the original left green.  I'd say it is even with the 8th at SH.  The 9th at PV to the original right green (Maxwell revision) is good but not the equal of SH's 9th in terms of offset angle on the tee shot, rolling fairway, elevation change and interplay of slopes on the green.  The 11th at PV is not quite as good as the 3rd at SH.  The 13th at PV is wonderful and I'd give it the ever so slight nod over the 6th at SH.  The 16th at PV is a very strong hole but comes in short of the 14th at SH.  The 17th at PV is a solid hole, close enough in quality to the 4th at SH to consider them even.  The 18th at PV gets the slightest nod over the 18th at SH.  Probably because of the Flynn bunkers below the green  ;)  I did this off the cuff but I think SH takes the par 4 battle 4-3.

wsmorrison

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2007, 09:29:22 PM »
I will dare to say that once the green expansions and other restoration work is completed at Shinnecock Hills that it will be considered the best course in America by a significant number of those seriously interested in golf architecture.  It is great now but will be improved merely by going back to what once was.

wsmorrison

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2007, 09:39:26 PM »
Jim,

Pine Valley is an awesome experience and I can understand why you feel that way and think your drop everything test is meaningful.

As to speaking to Ran and his hole by hole, what does he know anyway  ;)  Even still, I judge SH the winner by 7-4 and that is significant and also feel the par 4s are in SH's favor.  The par 5s about even, maybe slightly in PV's favor.  The par 3s are close but I give the nod to SH.

John K,

Well that explains it  ::)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 09:40:02 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2007, 09:51:10 PM »
Tommy W,

Interesting selection of holes that you don't care for.  I like every hole at Shinnecock Hills, and find 9,13 and 18 very good.  Heck, in my opinion the 9th is one of the great par 4s in golf.  But there's room for many opinions and I surely respect yours.

 
Wayne,  I know that these holes are highly regarded.  I also hold them in high regard.  For me they a good off the tee but  are too uphill for the second shot.  I know they wanted to get back to the clubhouse but not every finishing hole has to end on the same elevation as the cluhouse.  I like the green of thirteen but the drive and second shot are not up to the level of the rest of the course.  Of course, i am splitting hairs of excellent golf holes on an outstanding course.  So for me it isn't that the holes are not good I just don't love them.

If I were to pick two holes at PV that don't make my heart sing they would be 14 & 16.  As with the holes in question they are good holes they just don't do much for me.  One of my favorite hole at PV is 17.  I love the second shot.

I suspect that there are a lot of great holes that others don't particularly like.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 09:51:51 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2007, 09:54:01 PM »
Day in and day out I would vote for PV - it doesn't depend upon weather or condition to be great.  For that matter neither does SH but weather and condition can be factors which could affect its rating.  Wind is a tremendous influence on SH and part of its greatness is how it plays with wind.  When the wind is down or when it is blowing opposite from its normal direction, the course loses some of its greatness.  Also, I think that the drought during the last Open hurt the course as the players were not intimidated by missing fairways - the rock hard greens made the course difficult but in a way which was never intended. You can try and be analytical in deciding which one is better but in the end, it is a pretty silly exercise.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2007, 10:36:12 PM »
I find it very difficult to put PV or Shinny above the other while denigrating one or the other.  Personally, my ranking is Sand Hills, PV, Shinny, Merion, and then a slight drop off.  I have a feeling Shinny with the green expansions could change my opinion--they are that close to begin with.  How would the addition of Sebonic affect a Shinny vs. PV ranking?
That seems to be from left field.  I cannot make a  conclusive judgement about Sebonic, but it is not getting the feedback that Friars Head receives from the people I know who have played them both.  As great as I think Friars Head is, it is a couple notches below Shinny--which is still far above many other great courses.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2007, 11:12:09 PM »
I've played both a number of times and I prefer Pine Valley.  I find it suits my game better and I enjoy the challenge much more.   Shinnecock is just to damn hard.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2007, 12:50:20 AM »
Wayne should recuse himself on this one.  Both are 10's in my book.  

If you are going to side with the course that's playable by all classes of players, you've got to go with Shinnecock.  

If you are going to side with the course that has the best variety of holes in all of golf, you've got to go with Pine Valley.

If forced to choose between them, I don't know how I could go with Shinnecock, considering that when I am in its neighborhood I'm always more inclined to go and play National.

Mike Sweeney

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2007, 05:27:51 AM »
Mike, let me think about the par 4s at PV vs. SH and try to compare with length in mind.  

The 1st holes are even.  The 2nd at PV is unique and great but not better than the 10th at SH, let's call it even.  The 4th at PV is long but not great, certainly SH's 12th is a far better hole.  The 6th at PV is an excellent hole though the back end is a little bit like the 1st.  I'll give it a slight nod over the 13th at SH.  The 8th at PV is an excellent short par 4.  Let's just consider the original left green.  I'd say it is even with the 8th at SH.  The 9th at PV to the original right green (Maxwell revision) is good but not the equal of SH's 9th in terms of offset angle on the tee shot, rolling fairway, elevation change and interplay of slopes on the green.  The 11th at PV is not quite as good as the 3rd at SH.  The 13th at PV is wonderful and I'd give it the ever so slight nod over the 6th at SH.  The 16th at PV is a very strong hole but comes in short of the 14th at SH.  The 17th at PV is a solid hole, close enough in quality to the 4th at SH to consider them even.  The 18th at PV gets the slightest nod over the 18th at SH.  Probably because of the Flynn bunkers below the green  ;)  I did this off the cuff but I think SH takes the par 4 battle 4-3.

Wayne,

I just went to Ran's review to jiggle my memory of some of the front side Par 4's at SH. It appears that Ran had the same problem as only one Par 4's from the front side is reviewed by Ran! It is the first hole, and I will acknowledge that he should have included the 9th hole too.

PS. The first at Shinnecock blows away the first at PV for setting and if the wind is blowing up there, it sets up the psychology of the day too.

TEPaul

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2007, 06:11:13 AM »
I think Tom Doak's post above says a lot about how to compare these two courses in a general sense.

I'm also glad to hear that these two courses are ranked #1 and #2 by GD. If GD wanted to flip their positions from time to time that'd be OK with me because I think both courses are great in their own way and I don't give a damn about magazine rankings anyway.  ;)

To me the interesting thing about their #1 and #2 ranking is they are such different courses and architectural styles in so many ways, and that despite the fact there is (or was) one small architectural factor about Flynn's Shinnecock that was taken from Pine Valley.

I know both courses well over a lot of years and it's certainly no knock at all on Shinnecock to say if I did a hole by hole match play comparison for my preferences Pine Valley would win about six up.

I say that while admitting that I think I can legitimately find something good and positive to say about the architecture and strategic concept of every single hole on both golf courses. That alone is pretty rare, in my opinion.

In an historical sense, I think Pine Valley's place in golf architecture is more dramatic as it was a course that made an immense impact on the world of golf and architecture right out of the box. Not that it was generally copied but it's hard to deny it made a huge impact on the world of architecture.

I think it's fair to say that Shinnecock grew on the world of architecture to its current status much more slowly over time----which frankly may be the more interesting fact to study and analyze as to why and how.

And I'd add to that there is plenty about both courses that depict their positions at basically either end of the era of the Golden Age----and that fact may be the most interesting of all to study in an architectural sense for such as us----eg looking at the styles of the holes of either course is almost like looking at a microcosm of how the Golden Age of Architecture itself evolved throughout its own era. (this is made sort of ironic by the fact that the course that may've started it all (Golden Age) in America is immediately juxtaposed to Shinnecock and not Pine Valley).

If one thought this means I like Pine Valley better than Shinnecock I wouldn't say that. I admire them both and their architecture a helluva lot but for differing reasons.

For a bonus comparison I'd say both Shinnecock's clubhouse and its relationship to the golf course wins hands down.  ;)

Another thing that may be notable is both courses over the years have been not much screwed around with architecturally other than lengthening (compared to some other bigtime American courses). I think that says a lot about both golf courses---or maybe just their clubs.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 06:15:29 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2007, 06:23:50 AM »
"PS. The first at Shinnecock blows away the first at PV for setting."

MikeS:

That's interesting but only shows how subjective golf architecture and the analysis of it can be.

In my opinion, PV's first hole is the greatest first hole on earth. And I say this recognizing that about 90% of what carries the day on PV's first hole is the green and green-end.

Mike Sweeney

Re:Pine Valley vs Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2007, 06:37:14 AM »
And I say this recognizing that about 90% of what carries the day on PV's first hole is the green and green-end.

Tom,

Hey I was really just trying to throw a life jacket to Wayne!

I have only been there once, but I was surprised that the first hole at PV was visually cut off from the tee. Call me a closet Fazio fan, but I appreciate the first at National, Sand Hills, Shinnecock and Yale where you get a sense of the course from the first tee. Based on 1 play, I can't agree or argue about the green on #1, as I was just happy to be on it at that point!


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