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Kyle Harris

Mike Cirba...
« on: August 08, 2007, 08:25:16 PM »
...and the other 17 most memorable holes?

Anyone else?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2007, 08:39:21 PM »
Gee...thanks Kyle.

17 at Prairie Dunes....

13 at St. Andrews...

18 at Riviera...

15 at Kingsley Club

10 at Emanon (PA)

ok...let me give this some thought.   Otherwise, shooting from the hip will probably leave out quite a few after a long day.

which I guess is the point...let's see what else comes to mind...

11 at Brigantine (NJ)

8 Crystal Downs

1 Sand Hills

stream of consciousness now...

2 at North Berwick

14 at Merion East

8 at Maidstone

18 at Skyline (PA) - the best finishing hole in golf.

2 Torrey Pines South (preRees)

2 at Pacific Dunes

2 at Galen Hall

3 at NGLA

10 at Yale

16 at Lido (the RTJ version)

Ok...I'm sure I'll take a beating for this, but those are the first 18 holes that spring to mind with a little focus...which to me would seem to qualify as "most memorable".

Kyle Harris

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2007, 08:43:01 PM »
That's the beauty of this thread... what makes a hole memorable may have nothing to do with architecture.

For example, one of mine is the 1st hole at Doylestown because of the District Championship playoff on which I busted one up the middle in front of about 250 coaches and other players...

Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2007, 08:47:45 PM »
I'm just itching to explain the multiple strategies of the 18th at Skyline (the greatest finishing hole in golf) in Carbondale, PA to you all.  

Does anyone know how to post an aerial satellite view from Mapquest?

Kyle Harris

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2007, 08:51:38 PM »
1st at Doylestown
11th at Reading
13th at Bethpage Yellow
9th at Bethpage Red
18th at Huntingdon Valley
8th at Manufacturers
7th at Merion West

A few of mine.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2007, 09:37:49 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"These two Great Principles…maintain the sanctity of how the golf ball's lie (unaltered by the player) is the only TRUE CONNECTION with the golf course, the ground, and ultimately Nature itself unaltered by the player (you play the course as you find it--eg don't alter it during play)


Shivas:  It seems to me that you feinted before you completed typing in your note as you are missing a ".
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 09:38:05 PM by Ryan Potts »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2007, 09:46:20 PM »
If a man feints on the 10th at Sand Hills from the beauty of a bunker, and he therefore can't remember it, can it make his top 18 most memorable holes?

 ;D

Shivas,

Not if it was the second time he had played the 10th hole in 3 hours.  ;D

If anything, I remember the 10th hole more than the others on the course.   I especially liked the pink fairway with the herds of giraffes floating down around the putting surface, which seemed to levitate 50 feet above the surrounds, even though incongruously it was in a punchbowl.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2007, 09:48:32 PM »
I'm just itching to explain the multiple strategies of the 18th at Skyline (the greatest finishing hole in golf) in Carbondale, PA to you all.  

Does anyone know how to post an aerial satellite view from Mapquest?

Hey Mike,

I took a look on google earth and it didn't have the proper resolution for that area.  I'll give it a shot with msn and see if I can get a shot of it up...

Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2007, 09:50:36 PM »
Hey Mike,

I took a look on google earth and it didn't have the proper resolution for that area.  I'll give it a shot with msn and see if I can get a shot of it up...

Kalen,

Mapquest is the only one I've seen so far that has somewhat adequate resolution of that area.

I think they're hiding it to avoid the crush of the GCA afficianado crowds if their secret ever gets out.

But seriously, I can't think of many holes anywhere that offer more.  
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 09:55:39 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2007, 09:56:07 PM »
Just for full disclosure, I've feinted 3 times while playing or practicing golf.

Vaso vago (sp?) reactions from pulled back muscles each time.

So I'm not one to poke fun...

Wussy.   ;D

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0

Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2007, 10:10:05 PM »
Hmmm...

Kalen,

Unlike Friars Head, Skyline in black and white doesn't quite show enough relief to be awe-inspiring.

It needs more visual contrast, and given that it's a completely bunkerless course of about 4800 yards, it's tough to do it justice from 2000 feet.

However, if you scroll northward, you can see some dark blobs that are water hazards.   I can also tell you that the 18th green is at the direct corner of the property line and the road that intersects the course.  

It's 392 yards, and it plays as a par five.  The tee is at about 2:15 from the green.

Anything from a 3 to a 10 is a likely happenstance every single day.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 10:11:47 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2007, 10:11:03 PM »
Well, I"m trying to be nice...they were all on a practice range, hitting balls 'till my hands bled like a man (back in the days when I did that) ;D ;D

Shivas,

You mean you weren't even walking at the time??  ;)  ;D

Sorry man...just trying to get a chuckle out of you.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2007, 11:08:42 AM »
Ok Mike,

Here we go.  I think I got a decent enough picture of the hole.  I circled in red where I thought the green was.  Let me know if I was wrong and I can take another shot.  Mapquest kept crashing my PC last night, but my work PC can handle it just fine..   ;D


Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2007, 11:24:28 AM »
Kalen,

I was afraid you would do that.   Thanks a lot.   ;)

Yes, you've located the green.  The tee is about at 7:30, maybe 3/4 of an inch below where it says "Skyline GOlf Course".

If you can put a little mark there and re-post for everyone's benefit, I'll try to find some time today to discuss strategies.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 11:24:40 AM by MikeCirba »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2007, 11:40:49 AM »
I'm glad I could be of service..   ;)

When you said the words "the greatest finishing hole in golf", that got my ears perked up.

Here is the updated photo with a circle indicating approx position of the tee:

« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 11:42:38 AM by Kalen Braley »

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2007, 12:17:00 PM »
No.2 at Torrey South?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2007, 01:26:10 PM »



Kalen,

Can you move the tee circle exactly one space northward and you've got it.


Tim,

I didn't say "best".   I said most memorable "to me", which meant that they were the first 18 holes that came to mind in about a total 5 minute exercise last night.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2007, 01:42:03 PM »
Ok Mike,

Hopefully the 3rd time is the charm....Red circle is green, yellow box is teeing area.


Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2007, 01:43:44 PM »
Bingo!

Thanks, Kalen...

I promise to get to this within the next 24 hours.   There are about 5 stratgies I'd like to outline.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2007, 10:03:01 AM »


The 18th at Skyline is perhaps the ultimate in both minimalism and naturalism.  There is not a single bunker or other man-made feature between the tee on one hillside and the green on the other.  There is no playable rough, as such, as all play areas (except the green) are mowed to fairway height.  

Whether through a stroke of luck, a flash of genius, a twist of fate, or perhaps proving the theory that putting 50 simians in a room for 50 years with typewriters would statistically produce something approximating Shakespeare, somehow the amateur architect (who shall remain nameless), after 17 holes ranging between dull and lifeless and decently good and creative managed to pull it all together into an absolutely brilliant Magnum Opus of a hole that you could play over and over in multiple ways.

Perhaps it’s best to start at the green, work back to the tee, and then describe the intermediary obstacles.  

The green is elevated about 40 feet above the landing area, and is tucked into a corner tight against the property line (and OB) on the right (a mere 2 paces) and backed up against a public road (and OB) behind (a mere 4 paces from the back edge).   The green itself is about 60 feet wide with significant natural undulations, bumps and hollows that almost split it into right and left sections.   It is extremely shallow from front to back, probably in the neighborhood of 45 feet, although the first ten feet of the green is a false front coming up from the natural slope of the hilltop, and is unusable as a hole location.  I’ve seen people putt off this green to front hole locations.   The left 3rd of the green falls pretty quickly from right to left, which is the general tilt of the entire green.  

Behind the green, the one saving grace is that just beyond the green there is a small hollow sweeping up a bank to the road, much like the back of the 13th at Augusta, to envision the “backboard” that helps contain a slightly over-aggressive shot.   (although it should be noted that I’ve seen balls coming in on a hot trajectory, especially during firm and fast summer conditions, that hit the green and bound across the road on a single bounce.)

The tee is located 392 yards away on another hillside, about the same elevation level as the green.  The tee shot plays downhill about 40 feet, but reaches bottom about 170 yards from the tee and then flattens out for the next 120 yards before beginning the uphill ascent to the green.   Beginning about 70 yards from the tee, a copse of thick woods runs parallel to the hole down the entire left side before becoming a rough-hewn, thick grassed meadow about 290 yards from the tee.   On the right side, a large specimen tree slightly intervenes from the right about 100 yards from the tee, and just further beyond there is a natural pond that extends out to about 300 yards from the tee, paralleling the fairway.  

Lest one think this is just a penal driving hole with woods left and water right, it should be noted that the fairway width is quite ample, and probably a full 65 yards at its widest point., although the fairway is generally rather rumply and the right side is sloped towards the water, slightly diminishing the effective playing width.

However, in the single best use of a strategic tree I’ve ever seen, at 250 yards from the tee, in the left center of the fairway, there is a huge specimen tree probably a few hundreds years old and about 70 feet tall, with wide, full branches.   Standing sentinel as the course’s final defense, it usually has the last laugh.

Remembering the severity of the green and the difficulty of the approach shot (from the lower landing area, it’s a true “Skyline” green (no pun intended), with OB looming very close and the timid shot likely to run further back down the hill leaving the ultimate in uncomfortable uphill stances for the dicey pitch, it’s important to be coming into this green with a high, lofted, soft short-iron shot.

However, as the final coup de grace, at about 290 yards, just before the uphill ascent, the formerly wide fairways narrows to about 15 yards wide, as the rough-hewn meadow and creekbed on the left intercedes, sweeping in towards the pond as the delta of a river might.   The creek is capped and covered and flows under that 15 yard stretch of fairway.   On the right, just beyond the end of the pond, are a row of trees about 20 feet high.

With a sense of humor, whimsy, and accuracy, the hole is rated as a par five, the shortest one I am familiar with at 392 yards.   Thus, eagle is very possible, as is 10.

There are a number of different options from the tee.   They include;

The 220 yard iron or hybrid to the right side quadrant of the fairway, trying to keep it right of the intervening tree, but not so far right as to bring the water into play.  However, this leaves the proverbial 170 yard, steeply uphill mid-iron that isn’t likely to hold the green very well.   Often, layup onto the hillside is the smart second-shot play from there.

The bold 250-260 yard downhill 3-wood that skirts past or even with the tree yet stays beween tree and pond.  I’ve seen this often lead to a direct run-in with the tree as the last second flinch impulse tends to be away from the pond and into the tree.   If played successfully, the ball ends up in the roughly 23 yard wide fairway that exists between the tree and pond at this point and leaves about 130 yards straight uphill that just begs for dreams of finishing eagle glory.

The crafty driver down the left side, that must go 260 but not to exceed 280 yards.   There is about 20 yards between the  specimen tree and the woods on the right, ending in a right-angled corner where the rough-hewn ground starts.   This is actually the garden spot, because from this vantage, one can actually come into the the green at the least oblique angle, and even see a good portion of the green, which isn’t possible from the right side.   The approach is slightly longer,…probably about 140 uphill because you’re now playing the hole as sort of a dogleg around the tree, but that’s offset by shooting into the uphill portion of the green and the increased visibility.

I’ve seen long bombers try two other avenues, as well.   I’ve seen some try to cross the 15 yard stretch at the 290 mark, which then widens back beyond the pond to about 30-40 yards wide for the last 100 yards.   I’ve even seen bombers try to drive it over the pond, over the 20 foot trees beyond them, and even seen it successfully done a few scant times.

That should be enough to now…I’d just ask anyone interested to think about what recovery shots and options would follow after any of the above options fail, especially considering that another smaller spring fed pond somehow incongruously appears on the hillside about 20 yards left and short of the green.




Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mike Cirba...
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2007, 10:29:16 AM »
Mike:

That sounds like a great hole, and a reminder that yardages/par often have little relevance to the worthiness of a hole.

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