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Patrick_Mucci

Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« on: August 08, 2007, 02:29:40 PM »
To Florida ?

Considering the growth of the State from the early 20th century to current times, why didn't/haven't the great architects of their day come to Florida and built a substantial number of golf courses ?

Did the flat terrain discourage them ?

In a recent golf publication an article listed "The 40 best resort/communities"

Interestingly enough, Nicklaus and Fazio dominated all other architects by multiples.

Florida is a huge State.
It's connected to the wealthy cities in the North.
So why didn't the Great ones come and produce a substantial body of work in Florida ?

Ken Moum

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2007, 02:50:02 PM »
I had to be the timing of golf's boom and the Golden Age relative to Florida's development.

There wasn't that much going on there until the early 20th century, and it collapsed pretty quickly.

From http://www.flheritage.com/facts/history/summary/

"The Great Depression in Florida

Florida’s economic bubble burst in 1926, when money and credit ran out, and banks and investors abruptly stopped trusting the "paper" millionaires. Severe hurricanes swept through the state in the 1926 and 1928, further damaging Florida’s economy.

By the time the Great Depression began in the rest of the nation in 1929, Floridians had already become accustomed to economic hardship.

In 1929 the Mediterranean fruit fly invaded the state, and the citrus industry suffered. A quarantine was established, and troops set up roadblocks and checkpoints to search vehicles for any contraband citrus fruit. Florida’s citrus production was cut by about sixty percent."


If things had stayed properous for another decade, you'd think the resort industry down there would have gone to golf.

On other thing to consider is that the "golf grasses" of the early days weren't adapted to grow that far south. Isn't that why Pinehurst #2 had sand greens?

Or, I could be completely off base.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Clyde Johnston

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2007, 02:54:20 PM »
It was also hard to grow what Bermuda they did have without irrigation systems.

wsmorrison

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2007, 03:00:40 PM »
kmoum accurately summed up the perfect storm of factors that led to a severe downturn in opportunities.  The land bust in Florida foreshadowed much the same scenario that would take place in the capital markets a couple of years later.

Flynn was relatively busy in Florida given his small output.  Following the development of the railroads and planned communities that developed concomitantly (similar to the growth of communities along Philadelphia's Main Line), Flynn designed ten courses, some of which never got off the ground for the very reasons mentioned above.

1925   Cleveland Heights, Ritz Carlton North (not built), Ritz    Carlton South (not built)

1926   Opa Locka (NLE), Floranada South (not completed)

1929   Boca Raton South (NLE), Boca Raton North (NLE)

1930   Indian Creek

1931   Miami Beach Polo (not built)

1936    Normandy Shores
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 03:01:48 PM by Wayne Morrison »

RJ_Daley

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2007, 03:06:36 PM »
I'd guess in addition to the above info from kmoun and Clyde, that interior Florida was considered a hell hole until the advent of air conditioning.  Thus shrinking the state's size to coastal potentials.

But, while not prolific, all the biggies had courses built down there, Ross, Tillie, Raynor, Langford and Morreau, Kleek and Van Stiles, Wilson, Flynn, Packard, et al.   What are you saying, 'great ones' didn't come there?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 03:07:15 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2007, 03:15:02 PM »
Please do not underestimate the value of our interstate system.  I have an old friend that tells me it took him seven days to reach Florida from Illinois because when he entered Kentucky the paved roads stopped.  He is 95.

wsmorrison

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2007, 03:34:11 PM »
John,

How long would it take your friend to travel from Illinois to Florida by train?  


SPNC_Chris

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2007, 03:35:35 PM »
I like Ross' Dunedin Country Club (once "PGA National Golf Club"). I've played it a few times.


BCrosby

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2007, 03:41:14 PM »
Through most of the 20's, the bulk of wealthy northerners wintered in Augusta or south GA (Jekyll, Sea Island) or farther north. Big name designers did a lot of work in those areas. Ross, Raynor, Travis, Alison, Leeds.

When things started to get going in FL in the early 20's, there was a real estate bubble that popped and a couple of really bad hurricanes hit. Flagler's investments in rail, hotels, golf courses and resorts from St Augustine to the Keys were wiped out by a massive hurricane. In some respects, St Augustine was never the same. FL was still a swampy, sandy, hot, almost empty place (with the exception of the Miami area) as late as 1960.

Ask TEP to tell you about Daytona Beach in the late 50's.

The big explosion of golf course construction in FL was in the 60's. Unfortunately, that was during the darkest days of the gca Dark Ages.

Bob
 


« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 03:44:29 PM by BCrosby »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2007, 03:59:23 PM »
John,

How long would it take your friend to travel from Illinois to Florida by train?  



That is an interesting question.  They owned the local funeral home and had both a big family and big car so driving may have been the most cost effective method of travel.  I will ask him if he does not die before tomorrow night.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2007, 04:08:56 PM »

I'd guess in addition to the above info from kmoun and Clyde, that interior Florida was considered a hell hole until the advent of air conditioning.  

Thus shrinking the state's size to coastal potentials.

Which is huge.  I think Florida's coastline exceeds California's
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But, while not prolific, all the biggies had courses built down there, Ross, Tillie, Raynor, Langford and Morreau, Kleek and Van Stiles, Wilson, Flynn, Packard, et al.   What are you saying, 'great ones' didn't come there?

Packard's not a "Golden Age" architect, and neither is Wilson.

Raynor built 3, Tillinghast built 2, Flynn built 6 with two being in the same complex, Langford & Morreau built 8, Kleek & Van Stiles 6.

Only Ross produced in numbers

Where were Banks, Bendelow, Emmet, Gordon, MacDonald, MacKenzie, Maxwell, Thomas and Tucker ?

It seems odd the C&C and Doak haven't had a project in Florida.  My question would be, if they did, would it be a private club rather than a resort or community course ?
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« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 04:09:47 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

RJ_Daley

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2007, 04:13:25 PM »
Bendelow was there... even Stanley Thompson had one.  

True, Ed Lawrence Packard wasn't golden age, but he is older than you, making him nearly ancient!  ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Michael Christensen

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2007, 04:46:55 PM »
C&C are in the middle of a project in Clermont.......hopefully it will be on par with their other great jobs


Adam Clayman

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2007, 05:52:42 PM »
In Dick's defense, Pat's post said nothing about Golden Agers. It said "of their time".

Have you ever tried to get any workers to do work in Florida?

I assume it was even harder back in their day.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2007, 06:12:06 PM »
Adam,

Olde RJ needs plenty of defending.

In the post war growth spurt, I'd imagine that most community-golf course developers wanted to keep their start up costs down, and as such, shied away from name architects, until more recently, when the design fees became a proverbial drop in the bucket compared to the project's overall expense and revenue.

One would have thought that the tycoons from up North, who were developing Florida would have brought their fair haired architects South with them.  In some cases they did, but, it seems that none of these architects planted their flag in the State of Florida.

TEPaul

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2007, 06:57:03 PM »
"Ask TEP to tell you about Daytona Beach in the late 50's."




All the really cool guys had chopped '49 Fords or '50 Mercs, dechromed with naughahyde white upholstery and their girlfriend's name on the passenger door.

There were "Drive-ins" everywhere with cool cars with their hoods up and waitresses on white rollerskates. Drive-in movies everywhere too. If that got too boring you could always meet on the deserted beach way down near the old beach/road track in South Daytona and drink purple passion in the middle of the night (although I was a little young for that kind of thing then but to my mother's horror apparently my sister wasn't).

And then one lonely weekend morning I spotted a truck with a trailor cruising over the Main Street bridge to the mainland with a '40 Ford on it with the number M1 on the sides and Fish Carburetor on the back. Across the top of the driver's door was painted Glenn "Fireball" Roberts-----little did I know it on that lonely weekend morn but I was entering the beginning of history and my world would never be the same again!

I went to funky little Seabreeze Private School with my sister (total students about 60). My sister and her friends used to run across the school yard at lunch and through a narrow alley to the drugstore soda fountain, get a float and go next door to the record store to listen (OVER AND OVER AGAIN) to the first few records of this new instant record star by the then odd name of Elvis Presley.

At that point there was a little kid in my class named Jimmy France. His brother Billy France was two grades up in my sister's class. Their dad owned the gas station on Main Street.

Then one day in the late 1950s in the middle of the year the school was introduced to two young Cuban kids, a girl and a boy. Their dad had bought the ten acre old mansion of Barney Olds (Oldsmobile) down the street. Apparently they'd all come into Daytona on a private plane in the middle of the night. The guy was the President of Cuba, their name was Battista and their country had just fallen to revolutionary Fidel Castro.

By the way, as the heirs to NASCAR little Jimmy and Billy France are worth about 2 billion each today.

Those were the days, boy----those were the days.

Oh yeah, the golf courses? Well, my Dad played at the Daytona Beach CC over on the mainland. It was a Ross and a pretty plain one at that.

Dad was a real player and nobody could ever beat him over there. (Actually young college kid Doug Sanders sunk a bunker shot on the last hole of the Florida State Amateur to beat dad).

Our next door neighbor was a dentist---Dr Regan. He had a son who was a really good player as a kid, and then at 15 he beat dad in the finals of the club championship. That was a bit of a shock to me everyone else. Dave Regan went to U of F or Florida State and when he got out Dad and Mr Stevens, the Daytona Pontiac dealer, and some other guys put him out on tour.

Dave Regan could hit it a country mile and if some of you younger guys today could have seen him from a distance you'd think he was Hal Sutton.

Dave married young to Joan Dann, hot blond daughter of Carl Dann of Dubsdread in Dunedin fame in the middle of the state. Dave did well, he made some Ryder Cups but he couldn't putt all that well and he sure couldn't finish off the deal if and when Joannie joined him when he was at or near the lead. (actually young Dave and Joannie when they first got married lived next door with Dr and Mrs Regan. Joannie was so hot when I was about eight I'd sneak outta the house at night and go up on the hill behind the Regan house to see if I could see her getting undressed for bed. The timing of this kind of thing could be a little tricky and it sort of pissed me off I couldn't exactly figure out what was going on after she got undressed. At least once I just fell dead asleep up there on that hill and got bitten by a herd of red ants ;) My sister's burro, Chilli Pepper, lived up there on that hill and sometimes he would start honking and scare the tar outta me and get me worried that somebody would catch me up there spying on stripping Joannie Regan).

Those were the days, Boy---those were the days!



;)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 07:24:46 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2007, 08:32:46 PM »
Tom ....thanks for the memories ....and for stimulating my own.....which I'll not be sharing....yet. ;)

You are a Classic with a capital 'c', and a capital one at that.

....especially for one so young.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 08:36:47 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

BCrosby

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2007, 11:12:50 AM »
Good stuff Tom. Thanks.

My only memory of Daytona Beach was with my family. We all wanted to go to Sea World. So my father checked us into a motel in Daytona directly on the beach. After we got into our room, he pulled back the curtains, opened the sliding doors and there, just a couple of yards away, were lines of souped up Chevies and Pontiacs on the beach.

He stormed into the managers office and asked if it was always the case that cars were allowed on the beach. The manager said yes (he seemed quite proud), my Dad demanded his money back and we headed up the coast to stay at the Inn at Ponte Vedra (then in the middle of nowhere.)

To this day, that is all I've ever seen of Daytona Beach.

Bob  
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 11:18:58 AM by BCrosby »

TEPaul

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2007, 11:25:02 AM »
Bob:

Daytonans sure are proud of the fact that you can drive on the beach, and they always have been.

I learned how to drive on the beach in Daytona when I was seven years old. In those days the beach was not considered like the roads and anyone could drive on it. One thing you really learned in and around Daytona's beach is how to drive a car through some serious sand ruts. Those ramps coming on and off the beach were really something that way. You had to build up a real head of steam and pretty much lighten up on the steering wheel and let the car steer itself through them.

They even set a land speed record on that beach back in the '30s, I think, and well before they discovered the Bonneville Salt Flats for that purpose.

But the old beach/road track in the old Daytona 500 was really something. They raced bikes on it too, always a couple of weeks after Speed Week. Motorcycle Week during those races was something else. It was America at its most garrish and outrageous.

You should have seen Fireball coming off the beach into the old north turn on the old beach/road track. He perfected a way to slide up to the top of the North turn and drop right down from there. To do that he would have that MI in a power-slide about 300 yards before he hit the North turn.

One time he came out of the South turn (which was a lot lower) in a real power-slide, started fish-tailing and drove the car right into the ocean.

When Big Bill France built the new track for the 500 Fireball may've been the first to perfect "drafting" and the exciting "sling-shot" out of the draft.

Pat, I would say to a fairly large degree those "fair-haired" people of that day did have their favorite architects they got to do things in Florida.

Obviously Flagler used Ross, Clarence Geist of Philadelphia and Boca Raton used his friend Flynn (who built Seaview for him in Jersey). My dad and all his buddies used Dick Wilson all over the place and certainly in Florida. After Dick died their new guy was Pete Dye.

The architects who built in Florida probably networked as well as any architects of any time and place except perhaps the big metropolitan areas up the East Coast in the old days.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 12:14:13 PM by TEPaul »

Yancey_Beamer

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2007, 01:50:01 PM »
Tom,
I remember those great auto races ,beach to road to beach.
No fences,just standing where you felt safe.
An event for the town,not structured in a large racetrack.
Thanks Tom.

RJ_Daley

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2007, 02:14:55 PM »
Tom, all I can say is your Mother must have been a lady of saintly patience, having you and Chilli Pepper out on ant hill all in one family house hold...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jay Carstens

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2007, 07:17:07 PM »
Where were Banks, Bendelow, Emmet, Gordon, MacDonald, MacKenzie, Maxwell, Thomas and Tucker?

Patrick-
I find it interesting you include Tucker as a GREAT or  GOLDEN AGE guy.  You must consider him skilled (I do too) but I've never heard him mentioned with names like Maxwell or Mackenzie, etc.  He's kind of mystery and not someone you'd think of immediately.  I'm with you though, but how would you characterize or summarize his contribution to GA?
signed (would love to learn more about this guy),
Jay
Play the course as you find it

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2007, 07:52:15 PM »
Jay,

I really picked him, more for his connections, and Maidstone, than for other reasons.

Preakness Hills in Wayne, NJ is a wonderful Tucker course.

Jay Carstens

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Re:Why didn't the GREAT ones come ? In numbers ?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2007, 08:53:13 PM »
You're probably right, that he doesn't quite reach that level but I like him anyway  ;).  Thanks for the Preakness Hills idea too.  I'll try to get there someday.  Is it mainly unchanged?
Play the course as you find it

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