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Tommy_Naccarato

I Challenge You All.........
« on: July 27, 2007, 02:48:21 AM »
To help me improve the tone of architecture discussion on Golf Club Atlas.

Let's all put an end to this era of acrimony and senseless yammering but yet remain justified in our opinions and research and experiences We need to do this while being decent about it.

(Group Hug)

Also, access issues through members of this discussion group by contact will not be tolerated.

(Group Hi-Five)

Any indifference to this, please let me know by IM. I will do everything in my power to release you from these problems.

(Group Hi-Five, Again!)

All my best,
T.


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2007, 05:01:42 AM »
tommy,

i am going to challenge you on this seeing as you've mentioned it three times in the last few threads i've read...

...i am relatively new on this site... you will need to give examples...

...do various off-topic posts annoy you?... or is it people giving opinions that they are not qualified to give?... or people stating opinions as fact?...

if you are one of these people who only likes reading posts from experts on golf course architecture, then i and many others should bow out... the place will be poorer for it though and you will be only stunting the growth of those who wish to learn the subject...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2007, 07:32:20 AM »
Tommy:

Does your second rule mean I shouldn't host Mr. Brauer at Crystal Downs on Monday?  I figured it was for the good of the game ...

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2007, 07:57:27 AM »
tommy,

i am going to challenge you on this seeing as you've mentioned it three times in the last few threads i've read...

...i am relatively new on this site... you will need to give examples...

...do various off-topic posts annoy you?... or is it people giving opinions that they are not qualified to give?... or people stating opinions as fact?...

if you are one of these people who only likes reading posts from experts on golf course architecture, then i and many others should bow out... the place will be poorer for it though and you will be only stunting the growth of those who wish to learn the subject...

Ally,
We must continually strive to improve the tone within the DG and thanks VERY MUCH for your help in that regard.
This is about quality, on-topic threads in an effort to remove the grillroom-like atmosphere here. If you feel that this is something you might have a problem with, then let me know by IM.

Tom,
Have a great time with your guests, Jeff Brauer and Bill. I wish I was going to be there, unfortunately, I'll be working. ;)

If anyone should have anymore questions, please do not let this thread go 120 pages of incessant blathering. You can contact me via IM.
 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 08:00:37 AM by Tommy Naccarato »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2007, 08:38:43 AM »
Tommy:

Does your second rule mean I shouldn't host Mr. Brauer at Crystal Downs on Monday?  I figured it was for the good of the game ...

To quote the goat of the new movie opening tonight....."D'oh!"

I haven't noticed so much acrimony lately, which I attribute to fewer posts by both Tommy and yours truly!

Tommy must be more concerned with "yammering"......  I plead guilty as charged to that.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

B_Smith

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2007, 11:17:36 AM »
To help me improve the tone of architecture discussion on Golf Club Atlas.

Let's all put an end to this era of acrimony and senseless yammering but yet remain justified in our opinions and research and experiences We need to do this while being decent about it.

(Group Hug)

Also, access issues through members of this discussion group by contact will not be tolerated.

(Group Hi-Five)

Any indifference to this, please let me know by IM. I will do everything in my power to release you from these problems.

(Group Hi-Five, Again!)

All my best,
T.



Well I've been a quasi lurker here for a while and was approached by a couple of people who thought they knew my club affliation and were snooping for access.. Well I generally like to showcase my home course, I really didnt get a good feel for the wording/methods involved.. Just my 2 cents worth..

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2007, 11:59:26 AM »
Jeff, is Andrew at home in Dallas?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2007, 12:09:53 PM »
Tommy, could you clarify when you say;

"This is about quality, on-topic threads in an effort to remove the grillroom-like atmosphere here. If you feel that this is something you might have a problem with, then let me know by IM."

Do you mean 'grillroom' like in casual discussion over a beer or two? ....or 'grillroom' like in a court of law atmosphere?

I would take this offline but I thought others might benefit from your output.

BTW....I'm just bummed that not enough people bug me for access ;).......and that I'm not playing Crystal Downs :(.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 12:12:56 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Evan_Smith

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2007, 12:15:26 PM »



Well I've been a quasi lurker here for a while and was approached by a couple of people who thought they knew my club affliation and were snooping for access.. Well I generally like to showcase my home course, I really didnt get a good feel for the wording/methods involved.. Just my 2 cents worth..
Quote

Isn't the simple answer to this "problem" to just say no to the person.  I, myself would be happy to have anyone come and play Cataraqui (on their own dime, and when I'm in Kingston). I just don't think this needs to be the problem that people perceive this to be.  It's pretty easy to say no to someone.  Especially someone you don't know.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2007, 12:24:59 PM »
Don't get down, Paul, I'll bug you for access. I'm going to be right near you in a week or so. But first tell me where you live so I can make appropriate travel plans.

Also, I'm happy to take you to Crystal Downs. They have a great paramutiel window but to be honest I don't know if they're in season now. What about dogs? We've got a lot of action on that here in Virginia, although for some reason the normal "arenas" closed down early this year.

Mark

PS I think what Tommy was getting at were posters who come on and make random posts, like to achieve the next poster status level. That sort of thing.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2007, 12:50:23 PM »
Tommy, with all due respect, I think we need to break this down a bit.

What access issues are you speaking of exactly?  You don't have to name names, just describe what the heck you mean.

I hope there is not some sort of double standard here.  One man's participating in GCA.com and stating he will be in a certain area for a trip, and does anyone have any "suggestions" is perhaps another man's idea of fishing for access.  Is that what you mean?  If so, I think that you are WRONG!  How the hell are people in this GCA.com community supposed to get to know eachother, if not for such postings?

As many continue to state above, no one has to invite anyone to meet or to their club under such circumstances.  No one is restricted from saying NO to personal inquiries on IMs or e-mails either.  

I really believe that some people that belong to great and storied clubs come on GCA.com in many instances to tell the GCA.com community about THEIR course, as a matter of pride, and advance the widespread golf architecture afficianados understanding.  I really think some of those folks enjoy being a host.  If they didn't want people to know which clubs they belonged to, they probably wouldn't come on here and discuss them.  

Let's face it Tommy, you have been "invited" to play at all the most fabulous clubs in the country.  Did you receive those invites for the most part because you post on here, or do all these folks around the country just somehow know you without the means of the Internet to have spread your somewhat "cult like" persona?  Now, that is a compliment.  People know of your passion about the subject because of all these years you have posted some very enlightening and entertaining observations.  But, you haven't always been a pussy cat to certain folk about matters that trip your trigger either.

But, let's also be fair and realise that your posts have not all been 100% GCA.  Some of your best have been O.T. with humor and insight into other things that sometime amaze us that you have had very eclectic experiences.  Good for you!   But, some have started hard feelings with individual archies over the years, and some people suspect that some of the big name archies WON'T come on GCA.com for the very things you have said about them, right or wrongly criticised.  

There have been unfortunate threads over the years that were sad to witness the acrimony about someone or another's strongly held views over some aspect of GCA or its history, etc.  I think that most in the GCA.com community get very uncomfortable when two or more strong minded people descend into calling eachother out, on personal basis.  

I think such threads should then be deleted, when they cross the line of name calling, or character assasination or ridicule due to a believe or opinion.  

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE MODERATORS!  And, that is why one moderator should be able to delete another moderator's very own comments, if they also break these rules.

As one who has been on here for about as long as any, I try to contribute some GCA related observations when I can, and if I think it might give fodder to more interesting discussion.  But, I find it harder and harder to say anything original that hasn't already been stated 1000 times on here.  So, I also try to keep it in the framework of the "grillroom" atmosphere, because I consider so many here my friends.  I don't care to just always lecture or discuss only dry old GCA all the time with my friends.  I'm pretty sure most others here feel similar.  

In the last few days, I for one have made some quips (even to esteemed archies who are on this site) and posted cartoonish photos in an effort to be affable, or attempt to keep it light and humorous.  I don't apologise for that, and won't stop doing it because that is 'who I am'.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2007, 12:50:26 PM »
Tommy must be more concerned with "yammering"......  I plead guilty as charged to that.....

As soon as you plead guilty to 2nd Degree Rodenticide, your slate will be clean.

Have fun at Crystal Downs. Your putting still much-improved?

You don't have an opening in the group, do you?

Too bad I'm such a confirmed opponent of emoticons..
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2007, 01:25:09 PM »
RJ....bravo when you say;

"In the last few days, I for one have made some quips (even to esteemed archies who are on this site) and posted cartoonish photos in an effort to be affable, or attempt to keep it light and humorous.  I don't apologise for that, and won't stop doing it because that is 'who I am'..."

My work in this business is serious enough, as it constitutes my families livelihood, and as a consequence I tend to retreat here for relief.

Keep the humor coming as far as I'm concerned [pending Tommys clarification of 'grillroom' that is]. :)
 BTW....the serious stuff is going on over at the DLlll/Canadian Open thread....last seen on page 1.


Mark.....My address is St Simons Is., Ga....but don't expect to find me there much. This week its been 5 different states.
Next week its two states and Mexico.

Thanks for the track offer, but this week I've got it covered.

Tomorrow is opening day at the flat track [thoroughbreds] at Saratoga, and I plan on being there.

....and you can access me anytime....I'm easy....but any of you other folks will need to go through Tommy first. ;)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2007, 08:22:18 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2007, 02:03:52 PM »
Tommy,

And I was recently thinking how much I miss your acrimony...

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2007, 03:16:56 PM »
Paul C

Here's what you do: look for any horses owned by P Van Andel and lay as much $$$ as you've got on a last place finish.

No thanks necessary, but when you speak of me, speak highly.

Donnie Beck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 05:19:28 PM »
Some People just don't get it.

Jay Flemma

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2007, 05:35:37 PM »
It's the simplest thing in the world...don't say anything over a thread that you would not say face to face over dinner when we're all together.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2007, 08:51:34 PM »
It's the simplest thing in the world...don't say anything over a thread that you would not say face to face over dinner when we're all together.

Why don't you want Barney to post?

John Kavanaugh

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2007, 08:54:50 PM »
I have never said anything on this site about anyone that I would not say to their face.  I have given out my cell number and my address many times.  If anyone cares to dispute that fact I will pay for a one way plane ticket to the nearest airport and we may discuss such item.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 08:58:33 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2007, 09:40:46 PM »
I have never said anything on this site about anyone that I would not say to their face.  I have given out my cell number and my address many times.  If anyone cares to dispute that fact I will pay for a one way plane ticket to the nearest airport and we may discuss such item.


I'm only willing to take you up on this offer if it comes with access to one of your golf clubs.



OK, I'm just kidding... I should probably delete this post given the intent of the thread but I just couldn't resist.  It was too easy.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2007, 09:44:03 PM »
To help me improve the tone of architecture discussion on Golf Club Atlas.

Let's all put an end to this era of acrimony and senseless yammering but yet remain justified in our opinions and research and experiences We need to do this while being decent about it.

(Group Hug)

Also, access issues through members of this discussion group by contact will not be tolerated.

(Group Hi-Five)

Any indifference to this, please let me know by IM. I will do everything in my power to release you from these problems.

(Group Hi-Five, Again!)

All my best,
T.


Tommy,
I will accept your challenge but keep in mind that if not for OT post you would never have had Buelah the Waffle House waitress in the back of that pick up truck.....
Back to Topic...
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2007, 09:47:25 PM »
I have never said anything on this site about anyone that I would not say to their face.  I have given out my cell number and my address many times.  If anyone cares to dispute that fact I will pay for a one way plane ticket to the nearest airport and we may discuss such item.


Would not?  Or don't?  Many describe you as rather docile in person.  I don't think you'll find people saying the same about the tone of your posts.

Tom Zeni

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2007, 11:12:39 PM »
Bless me Father for I have sinned. I used a friend's name in the Subject Line not realizing that people would actually stoop for access to courses.

I also caught hell for it from a Mod, and rightly so. I sent emails to those who may have been offended, and will be more careful in future posts.

However, as for grillroom topics, as I've said to a moderator, I've been to many fine courses, and golfers are pretty much the same regardless of venue.  Not everyone at the grillroom is talking about architecture unless they just blew a 4ft putt and want the superintendent fired. O/T golf threads are a tough road to walk. Many speak from life experience, and I find those interesting as well as entertaining. If there is something I can add, I generally do.

I don't know how you discern the difference among those threads, but good luck in doing so.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2007, 01:21:49 AM »
I have never said anything on this site about anyone that I would not say to their face. ...

So you would call me a racist to my face? When you do such things, the moderator deletes the thread, and you get off without any evidence. I guess that's what gives you plausible deniability.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2007, 10:07:59 AM »
I have never said anything on this site about anyone that I would not say to their face. ...

So you would call me a racist to my face? When you do such things, the moderator deletes the thread, and you get off without any evidence. I guess that's what gives you plausible deniability.


I truly believe that each of us has a moral obligation to point out racist commentary when we see it happening both on here and in our real lives.  Racism against Aisian golfers is a problem that needs to be addressed and defended against.  The moderators have decided that this is not the forum for that discussion and decided to delete the offensive off topic thread.  I thought the thread should have been deleted base on the title alone.

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