[Patrick_Mucci]

Are raised greens with umbrella like perimeters the most efficient architectural method for dealing with marginal shots ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yes, if rejection is your only criteria, but why would you want to punish marginal shots so heavily?

The problem with the dome, fortress or umbrella greens is that they deal with the near miss too severely, IMHO.  Using them once in a while is okay, but in most other cases, you would want to have the more "inefficient" nursing slopes to actually help a marginal shot, or neutral slopes to keep a marginal shot closer to the green than a wider miss.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes, if rejection is your only criteria, but why would you want to punish marginal shots so heavily?

The problem with the dome, fortress or umbrella greens is that they deal with the near miss too severely, IMHO.  Using them once in a while is okay, but in most other cases, you would want to have the more "inefficient" nursing slopes to actually help a marginal shot, or neutral slopes to keep a marginal shot closer to the green than a wider miss.

Jeff,

Isn't the degree of the penalty determined by what's at the base of the umbrella slope.

It could be rough, closely mown fairway or bunkers.

Certainly, marginally hit shots shouldn't be rewarded.

The degree to which they're punished depends upon what the architect feels is appropriate for the shot at hand.

I would imagine that the punishment for a mis-hit long iron would be more benign than the punishment for a mis-hit short iron.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

I doubt I would put fall away slopes around a long par 4 green.  At least one side would be green level or even a helping slope, so yes, I agree.

The degree of penalty may be determined by the base of the slope situation, but the fact that a marginal shot is penalized is a result of the sharp falloff at the top.

I am still not sure a marginal shot always needs to be kicked as far down a slope and severly punished as one that lands there by virtue of how it was hit.  If the shot doesn't need to be rewarded, at least, it shouln't as a rule, be punished all that severly.  Why not let it rest somewhere near the green for a delicate little chip?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

When I indicated that this applied to elevated greens, I wasn't suggesting that they be substantially elevated.

Elevations of one foot become functional in terms of deflecting and penalizing mis-hit shots.

Elevated greens would also assist with drainage.

Slightly elevated greens, especially those that have an umbrella like perimeter tend to thwart short shots.

Since most golfers tend to underclub, I like that feature.

And, that feature can make a mundane hole location come alive.

[Jimmy Muratt]

I think raised surfaces are the best method for protecting greens and punishing marginal or poorly played shots.  They do penalize misplayed shots, but they also allow you to make up for it with a well played chip or pitch.  Closely mowed collection areas or slopes around greens create infinitely more short game interest than deep rough surrounding greens.  A ball nestled down in 4 inch rough doesn't give the player many options.  A closely cut surface brings creativity into play.  

I agree with the statement that for long par 4's or long par 3's it's not necessary to have crowned edges around the entire green.  A run-off on one side can be just as effective and if the green complex is well designed, sometimes a mistake on the opposite side can prove to be just as penal even though it didn't initially appear so.  

[Jon Wiggett]

I don't believe that you can give even a general rule for such things. I think so much depends on the individual circumstances of a hole and how it fits into the flow of the rest of the course. Even on a long par 4 or 3 a raised green might be appropriate if there have been a series of easy holes leading up to it. The 17th at TOC is a good example of this. It shouldn't however be used too much as Jeff says or it will become boring and stale.  

I also don't believe that a marginal shot should be unduly punished. I don't understand this for me perverse idea that only the perfect shot should be rewarded. There isn't a single golfer on the planet that hits more than a handful of perfect shots in even a good round or do people think that a 9 iron to 20 ft is perfect for Tiger?

IMHO part of the art of the game is to be able to score even if you are not playing so good. In the UK we call this scrambling. A good GCA will design most holes giving the golfer a series of choices and bailout places. Only on occasion will he force the golfer to play a particular shot with no bailout zone.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Jon,

I agree regarding bailout areas, on most holes there should be a bailout or safe area to play to.  That is why falloffs or hazards aren't needed all around a green.  Your point regarding scrambling is a good one, and one of the great aspects of collection areas or crowned surfaces is that they bring that part of the game back into play and make the short game interesting.  An slightly errant shot should be somewhat penalized but still allow a possible recovery.  

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

I'm not sure if this is a more effecient means. To me, even more effeciency (by this I mean... size and scale of the feature as compared to the green) can be had with a well-placed mound or ridge right at the merge point between approach and green.

[cary lichtenstein]

Are raised greens with umbrella like perimeters the most efficient architectural method for dealing with marginal shots ?

What's a marginal shot, a shot that hits the edge of the green? Why should that be penalized more than the shot that is 20 feet wide of the green?

[David_Tepper]

Cary L. raises an interesting point.

At places like Royal Dornoch or Pinehurst, a shot can land on the green, barely trickle off the edge of an "umbrella" green and roll down a slope, winding up 20ft. or 30ft. or more from the green, right next to a ball that never even came close to landing on the green at all.

The "almost good" shot winds up in the same spot as the "no chance" shot.  

[Ted Kramer]

Pat,

I'm not sure if this is a more effecient means. To me, even more effeciency (by this I mean... size and scale of the feature as compared to the green) can be had with a well-placed mound or ridge right at the merge point between approach and green.

Kyle,

Doesn't that leave long, left, and right, relatively unpunished?

-Ted

[Jon Wiggett]

David,

that is called 'rub of the green' in Britain. It is something that belongs to the game as it does to life. At Dornoch I don't believe they use the domed green to excess. Its all about balance.

Kyle,

why do you want to punish? People react better to rewards.

[David_Tepper]

Jon Wiggett -

My comments were only an observation. I was not passing judgement on what was "fair or unfair" or the notion that the game was intended to be "fair."

Having a vacation home in Dornoch, I am modestly familiar with the course!  For starters, the greens on #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #10, #11 & #14 all have appreciably sloped shoulders on at least one or two sides of those greens. I have hit more than one shot onto those greens and watched the ball trickle over the edge, down a slope and into a spot where a decent recovery shot is a dubious proposition.

I am not saying that is excessive or fair/unfair. The green sites at Dornoch are what give the course so much of its character and what makes it a far more memorable course that Nairn, for example.

DT





   

[Doug Ralston]

Shouldn't heavily played munis, then, be given inverted umbrellas? Keep the flow going by making marginal approaches feed TOWARD the hole.  

Ever play putt-putt  .

Doug

[Jeff Doerr]

I don't believe that you can give even a general rule for such things. I think so much depends on the individual circumstances of a hole and how it fits into the flow of the rest of the course. Even on a long par 4 or 3 a raised green might be appropriate if there have been a series of easy holes leading up to it. The 17th at TOC is a good example of this. It shouldn't however be used too much as Jeff says or it will become boring and stale.  

I also don't believe that a marginal shot should be unduly punished. I don't understand this for me perverse idea that only the perfect shot should be rewarded. There isn't a single golfer on the planet that hits more than a handful of perfect shots in even a good round or do people think that a 9 iron to 20 ft is perfect for Tiger?

IMHO part of the art of the game is to be able to score even if you are not playing so good. In the UK we call this scrambling. A good GCA will design most holes giving the golfer a series of choices and bailout places. Only on occasion will he force the golfer to play a particular shot with no bailout zone.

Jon,

I also liked the way you phrased that. My favorite courses have some place of bailout on almost every shot, but there is a price to pay. The positve side of the umbrella is that the next chip is often into a slope, making the recovery easier.

[Pete_Pittock]

Sounds like an inverted saucer. They are very good at fermenting frustration but need to be used in moderation and variety.

[paul cowley]

Are raised greens with umbrella like perimeters the most efficient architectural method for dealing with marginal shots ?

What's a marginal shot, a shot that hits the edge of the green? Why should that be penalized more than the shot that is 20 feet wide of the green?

....now Cary, I might disagree.

Missing the green slightly would suggest a player of a better caliber [hypothetically of course], than a player who misses the green wide by 20'.
That person already is penalized in that he missed the green by 20' because of a lesser skill level than the player who misses it by a closer margin....hell, he will probably skank his next one over the green and end up with a double, while the more accomplished player will be either up and down for par or at least make bogey.

I further think that the better player will go on to break 80, probably shoot a 78 or even a 77......and the poorer player who misses it by 20' might shoot in the low 90's [although he might be able to sneak in a 89 if the conditions are right....at least hypothetically].

[TEPaul]

Pat and Jeff:

I don't agree with your apparent ideas on "graduated" penalty through architecture and construction, at least not if carried through everywhere. That kind of thing is just heading too much down the road towards formulaic standardization in golf and architecture for me.

[Andy Troeger]

Are raised greens with umbrella like perimeters the most efficient architectural method for dealing with marginal shots ?

What's a marginal shot, a shot that hits the edge of the green? Why should that be penalized more than the shot that is 20 feet wide of the green?

....now Cary, I might disagree.

Missing the green slightly would suggest a player of a better caliber [hypothetically of course], than a player who misses the green wide by 20'.
That person already is penalized in that he missed the green by 20' because of a lesser skill level than the player who misses it by a closer margin....hell, he will probably skank his next one over the green and end up with a double, while the more accomplished player will be either up and down for par or at least make bogey.

Paul,
In an effort to play devil's advocate here, what happens when the weaker player hits a really good shot (for him/her)...and still gets stuck in the same dang place they would have otherwise!  

Pete,
I would tend to agree with your comment. A worthwhile feature when used reasonably.

[Kyle Harris]

Courtesy of Wayne Morrison.

Perhaps even more effecient is just surrounding the green with rough. Not only is the approach shot challenged, but the tee shot, or lay up shot as the case may be is challenged as the run up option is significantly more difficult.

The 1st green at Rolling Green (Flynn) was drawn at one point as an island in the rough green and I can imagine that this change would place a much larger premium on the tee shot than the current green with bail out chipping area. Especially with that green's severity.

[archie_struthers]

 

I think that false fronts are the most simple/subtle design feature going........the impact to the good /great player, who can control trajectory is most insidious.....by engaging his/her brain.....confusion may prevail

[wsmorrison]

Here's the 12th at Merion West, as good or even a better example of rough surrounding a perched green as it is perched on all sides.  This design makes relatively easy holes (both the 12th and 16th have no bunkers and are short for their par) more of a challenge because of the aerial demand.  Of course with firm and fast greens, the distance control requirement is enhanced.

[Chris Cupit]

For those familiar with Linville Golf Club, the second hole is an excellent example of the inverted saucer AND it combines a back green line that has an "infinity edge" to it.  The back just falls off and you can see this saucer pitched slightly towards you that just falls off the edge of the earth behind (and on the sides of course).

You can lay back off the tee of this 375 yard hole (blind drive over a hill) and leave yourself 150 or try and drive it down the hill so you have a short pitch.  Great little strategic hole beginning with all kinds of choices off the tee.

One thing about having marginal shots that hit the green end up in a similar place as the "wild" miss is you may be able to frustrate the better golfer who is used to hitting greens and gets sloppy about not hitting a specific section (esp. with a short iron) and the bogey or worse golfer isn't hurt any worse than his normal miss.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are raised greens with umbrella like perimeters the most efficient architectural method for dealing with marginal shots ?

What's a marginal shot, a shot that hits the edge of the green?

That would be one example.[/color]

Why should that be penalized more than the shot that is 20 feet wide of the green ?

It's not, shots 20 feet wide of the green are punished, inherently, by their location relative to the green, the further away you are, the more you're typically punished.[/color]

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