[John Kavanaugh]

How does the raw land, green sites, routing, created views and the field of play compare to each.  Try to leave value and private out of the equation.

[Scott_Park]

Not even close in my book- WH is relatively flat compared to B, so much so that you can see most of the golf course from any hole.  B on the other hand, has these wonderful dunes that offer glimpses of past or upcoming holes.  

It is almost like hiking in that you reach each turn in the trail with anticipation of what might come next.  The greater variety in the land shows itself in the green sites, routing, views and overall quality of the golf course.

Scott

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought I would add this excellent post by new guy Brett Crow to illustrate some Wild Horse architecture.

DAY 4

We continued our streak of being the first group off in the morning, as we even beat the clubhouse staff to the course at Wild Horse. I had heard so many great things about this course, so I was pretty excited to play it and I definitely was not disappointed.  The wind we saw at Quarry Oaks followed us to Wild Horse. It was probably around 20-25 mph when we teed off, but was back up over 40 by the time we were done. In fact the balls wouldn't even stay on the green by the final couple of holes.

#1, Par 4, 363 / 328
Here's a look off the opening tee as you ease your way into the round with a short par 4.


Here's a look at the 9th green from the back of the clubhouse.


#11, Par 3, 126 / 113
This is a short par 3 that played even shorter with the wind at our backs. I thought I was being smart by playing short of the pin, as it looked like I would have an uphill putt to the back of the green. Unfortunately I found that green falls away once you get over the crest of the hill and I ended up putting off the green (not the first time that day, nor the last).


#13, Par 3, 208 / 191
The wind was really starting to pick up at this point. I aimed by tee shot toward that house on the right and watched the wind bring it back to land on the front-right of the green and roll all the way across the green and off the back. One of the most exciting shots to watch I've ever hit.


My dad and I both managed wind up right next to each other in the same bunker fronting the 17th green.




Here's a look at the well-protected 18th green from the fairway.


This guy greeted us as we came up the 18th fairway. Here, he prepares to attack my wedge. That ought to make you think twice before looking for your ball in the long grass.


One last look from the clubhouse, looking out over the putting green and the back nine.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

I've played both -- in fact, I really like Wild Horse alot. However, Ballyneal is the better overall course. The land site is much more dramatic in Holyloke with a greater variety of holes, their overall pacing throughout the round and the complexity of the routing gives Ballyneal a considerable edge in my mind.

One other key item -- the quality of the green contours at Ballyneal also win the day and not by a close margin I might add.

If I had 10 round between the two courses -- I'd play seven rounds at Ballyneal and the remaining three at Wild Horse. So as not to confuse anyone -- I'm not lowering Wild Horse -- I'm simply elevating Ballyneal.

[John Kavanaugh]

I've never piayed St. Andrews or Wild Horse...Does the land of each resemble each other?  I hate to discount Wild Horse just because it seems so flat.

[Pete_Pittock]

I'll let you know in August, but won't be able to comment on Sand Hills.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'll let you know in August, but won't be able to comment on Sand Hills.

I can only hope.

[Tom Huckaby]

I've never piayed St. Andrews or Wild Horse...Does the land of each resemble each other?  I hate to discount Wild Horse just because it seems so flat.

I've been to both of these.

The land is sort of similar - both sites are rumpled and gently rolling.  If anything Wild Horse is a little MORE rolling - that is, it has several ridges that go a bit higher than anything at The Old Course.

So my summation is this... if you value The Old Course, you really can't de-value Wild Horse "because it's flat."  TOC is overall flatter.

TH

[Ken Moum]

So my summation is this... if you value The Old Course, you really can't de-value Wild Horse "because it's flat."  TOC is overall flatter.

TH

In fact, one of the things that most appealed to me about TOC is the proximity of all those golfers--on more than one course.

Standing on the 11th tee on a typical summer day, I think you can probably see upwards of 200 people, including golfers, caddies and walkers.

I understand the allure of holes that offer solitude, but I really, really like the collegial feel of golf on linksland like St. Andrews, Dornoch, Brora, etc.

[BCrosby]

I'm not sure where this "WH is flat" comes from.

WH is not flat. It has much more elevation change than TOC. A very different kind of terrain.

WH lacks the transcendental setting of Sand Hills, but other than that it holds its own quite well. Don't miss it.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob - I think you're right.  WH is in no way flat.  It is compared to mountainous courses, and is indeed less dramatic terrain than Sand Hills... but I sure wouldn't call it a flat course.  

And when it comes to TOC, I'm also with KM - the "flatness" is part of the coolness of the place.

One does get in trouble at times trying to answer JK's questions at face value.  

[PThomas]

John:

I've played both -- in fact, I really like Wild Horse alot. However, Ballyneal is the better overall course. The land site is much more dramatic in Holyloke with a greater variety of holes, their overall pacing throughout the round and the complexity of the routing gives Ballyneal a considerable edge in my mind.

One other key item -- the quality of the green contours at Ballyneal also win the day and not by a close margin I might add.

If I had 10 round between the two courses -- I'd play seven rounds at Ballyneal and the remaining three at Wild Horse. So as not to confuse anyone -- I'm not lowering Wild Horse -- I'm simply elevating Ballyneal.

I think Matt has hit it on the head

and I want to emphasize that WH is DAMN good...Ballyneal is just better

boy, I wish someone would build a WS in suburban Chicago!

[Adam Clayman]

The major differences between the two courses architecture are: The Amorphous teeing grounds(green to tee walks); The application and frequency of Blindness; the use of vertical spines on both FW and greens; degrees of slope.


I love both places. Each hole seems to have been inspired by a style of golf that is, and was, seriously missing from the American scene. I live equidistance from both, and have played WH only twice this year, and five times last year.

[RJ_Daley]

Brett Crow, I can't see the tail, but I don't think I detect a rattle.  Isn't that a bull snake.  I've seem several of them out there.  They are harmless.  As of about a year ago, Josh Mahar the superintendent assured me that no one has ever come across a rattlesnake at WH.  

Adam, aren't you about 1/2 hour closer to Bally?  

I only have one round at BallyNeal so far, and many at WH.  Based strictly on golf course architecture, the variety of looks and shots, the complexity of greens and surrounds, and the overall bona fides of each course's golf course architectural achievement, I must say that Bally is considerably out ahead of WH.

Yet, as a person that would like to play as often as possible, and one who is not a high skills player, yet I enjoy a course full of interesting shots and great greens and options to consider, I would play WH 7 out of 10 times.  Frankly, BallyNeal, Sand Hills, and other of that strata might become overwhelming to a guy like myself (12ish handicap)   BallyNeal and Sand Hills have everything to the max factor that WH has.  Everything is just more everything at the two high profile venues.  WH is a place to play as a regular, in my view.

[John Kirk]

Where's Steve Lapper?  By now I was sure he would post that Ballyneal is still not as good as Sand Hills.

I've never played Wild Horse.

[Adam Clayman]

Dick,
 No, I'm equidistant. You really need to see how BN has grown up. The greens are clipping along in the 9 foot range and if it would stop raining the canvas will be humming. I suspect this fall will be an amazing time to play.

That is a bull snake. To call it harmless is not accurate. Yes, if you leave them alone they will leave you alone, and they are not poisonous, but, I sure as shoot'in wouldn't want to get bit by one. What makes bull snakes alost sacred is that they eat Ratllers and is likely why they have'nt seen any.

[Scott Szabo]

My only comment to add was concerning the speed of the surface, which Adam has provided a bit of information on.

I have played Wild Horse about 20 times and Ballyneal only once, but the speed of the surface gave Wild Horse an edge in that area.  When Ballyneal speeds up, I don't think there will be much of a comparison I'm afraid.

Absolutely love playing Wild Horse, just don't feel it's in the same caliber as Ballyneal when that day comes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

I agree, the terrain and TOC and WH are dramatically different.

TOC is flat, WH isn't.

[Steve Lapper]

Where's Steve Lapper?  By now I was sure he would post that Ballyneal is still not as good as Sand Hills.

I've never played Wild Horse.

Gee John...I guess I don't need to..Does the superiority complex come with the initiaton, or is that extra? Is that earned, or inherited? I must be confused.

For the record, others here have already addressed most of the differences I might have described and the question of Sand Hills v. Ballyneal isn't being asked in this thread. For the record, I like both and think neither rises to the level of Sand Hills, but heaven forbid if I question the sacrosanct opinion of those here who so swiftly and assuredly see otherwise.

Lastly, I wasn't given my ticket to the coronation, I guess I'll just have to wait in line with the rest of the commoners.

[John Kirk]

Commoners aren't allowed to determine who is superior or which opinions are sacrosanct!

Steve, I shouldn't have done it, but I'm teasing you because I feel you have repeatedly stated your preference for Sand Hills over Ballyneal at every opportunity, especially the short par 4s.  From your standpoint, it may have seemed like a polite reiteration of opinion, but for me, it felt like you were beating the subject to death.

Sand Hills is the big dog in the Sand Hills.  It's an incredible place, supremely beautiful and challenging.  It's the Ballyneal guys who have the chip on their shoulder.

The inferiority complex comes with inheritance.  Anything for a laugh.  Sometimes I miss the mark.

[Tim Pitner]

Wild Horse is nowhere near flat.  I was quite surprised at how much movement there is in the land at WH.  Of course, it's not on the level of Ballyneal, which is wild and rollicking.  Overall, I'd say Ballyneal is something around a Doak scale 9 and Wild Horse maybe a 7-8.  WH is absolutely spectacular for a public course charging $40.  

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