[Mike_Young]

over the years has any one item done more to increase the cost of the golf experience than irrigation?

[Padraig Dooley]

Over irrigation is one of the least desirable things maintenancewise.

[BCrosby]

Mike -

It's bad for two reasons. It's raised the cost of the game and it is misused to the point I'm not sure but that it - net - actually detracts from the game these days.

Maybe you guys in the business are used to it, but I continue to be shocked by the cost of buying and installing irrigation systems. Somebody is making a boatload of money. Are you dealing with oligopoly pricing? Is there no real competition among suppliers?

I also continue to be amazed at the misuse of irrigation. Everyone now expects grass to be green 24/7 and without regard to weather. And thus we miss a whole dimension of the game.

I think it was Ross who said that you irrigate to keep grass alive, not to keep it green. What Don said.

Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
The price of real estate.
Another would be the marketing of 'golf destinations' where as soon as one course 'breaks out' and garners acclaim it dramatically raises its prices and all the others in the area follow suit.

[gookin]

In my opinion the cost of irrigation systems has gone up because of the desire to have firm and fast playing conditions ( pvc prices have not helped any either) which are held in high regard on this site on a daily basis. The need to micro manage the delivery of water to the golf course to achieve ideal playing conditions and the availability of the "ground game" has dramatically increased the complexity and cost of the irrigation system.  The more you attempt to control the cost of your system the more control of the water you give up. Then you are left delivering either too much water or not enough. Particularly as golf courses both private and public compete to stay in business, you must deliver the playing conditions necessary to attract the target customer. The more demanding your customers I think it is inevitable that you must invest in your irrigation system. For the record, I am not selling irrigation systems, I am a couple years away from buying one. And that is not a pretty thought.

[Craig Sweet]

We wouldn't have much golf here in the Rockie Mountains, nor in the arid southwest without irrigation...

Personally, I think it's a stupid question...no offense.  Most everything you look at can be considered both good and bad for golf....carts...exclusive clubs....hickory shafts....fancy mowers...new courses...on and on and on....

[Jim Johnson]

Maybe you guys in the business are used to it, but I continue to be shocked by the cost of buying and installing irrigation systems. Somebody is making a boatload of money. Are you dealing with oligopoly pricing? Is there no real competition among suppliers?

I totally agree. In doing research for a possible project here in western Canada, I am absolutely amazed at the cost of installing an irrigation system, as compared to all of the other costs in the project. It is by far the single most expensive item on the list, and not by just a bit. It is unbelievable.

JJ

[Craig Sweet]

I've been repairing a lot of busted irrigation this spriing...over 70 major breaks....the one thing that is clear to me, PVC is relatively cheap compared to some sprinkler heads...

We're looking at putting in a new system and there's talk of hiring (and I'm not sure of the order) an architect, and engineer and then the actual installers...

[Mike_Young]

I was trying to get at the exponential of an irrigation system....I realize there would not be golf in some areas without irrigation but for most fo us it has increased the labor for mowing, increased the cost of maitenance equipment, fertilizer, chemicals , cartpaths and the list goes on.....if a course decides to use irrigation to keep grass alive instead of to keep it green....all cost will drop....JMO

[Craig Sweet]

Mike, when every survey of golfers show that what matters most to golfers is "green grass"....I have never seen a number lower than 75%....then aren't they paying for what they want?

[Mike_Young]

Mike, when every survey of golfers show that what matters most to golfers is "green grass"....I have never seen a number lower than 75%....then aren't they paying for what they want?

Craig,
IMHO they really don't know what they want...they are being told what they want as with most things......BUT yes you are correct that is what they think they want......AND it is the reason our cost are so much more than they were at your average golf course.....THUS when people say they are leaving the game due to cost......just thoughts.....

[Craig Sweet]

I recall a thread on here that blamed the latest club and ball technology for increased cost of mowing, fertilization, cart paths, maintinance equiment etc...

There are lots of bogey men out there to pick on...irrigation is a tool....PGR's are a tool...ferts are tools....how each course decides to use these tools will determine costs...for example, there's a course down the road from mine...the super at this course sprays his greens every week....one week ferts, the next week growth regulators...he mows lower than we do...we fert. once a month with 1/2 pound of nitrogen (essentially) per thousand applied with a drop spreader...we use no growth regulators on our greens....what do you suppose his labor costs are compared to ours? How do you think our greens compare to his? When all is said and done I bet water use is similar.

[Mike_Young]

Craig,
I totally agree that they are tools.....I have seen more courses ruined with irrigation than helped....one thing I think is common is to see some of our best courses where the supt hand waters yet has a system capable of watering down to one head if he desires.....as you are aware..good supts know how to use water.....and then there are a lot of guys out there that live by the theory"they will not fire me if I have been watering"......JMO

[Craig Sweet]

Mike...I think the overall reality is costs have gone up for everything...people have more choices for spending money and...and this is the big one...WAGES have not kept pace with what things cost these days...I didn't need a $50 a month cell phone bill 5 years ago....I didn't need a $50 a month high speed dsl/cable internet connection 5 years ago....the box of cereal I bought yesterday was only $3.75 last year, now it's $4.95....I know MY wages have increased that much...

In the real world people are making some hard decisions...not about what fancy, exclusive club to join, but whether to continue playing golf or not...what to do about $3.50 gas...whether to buy the cheaper coffee and off brand cereal...lean instead of extra lean hamburger....

[Craig Sweet]

Sorry..meant to say "I know my wages have NOT increased that much.."

[paul cowley]

I've noticed in the last 10 years that irrigation costs have roughly doubled....and I question it all the time.

The Barefoot course's system cost just under $700k...with an overall budget of 6M....in 1999.

A course we have currently under construction has a similar budget in a similar area but the irrigation will cost 1.2M.

A course we are building in Mexico has a irrigation contract for 2.4M....knocked down from an original estimate of 3.2M
Building the rest of the course should cost around 3M.

So much of the cost has to do with the increased amount of heads because of double heads in greens loops and smaller heads in bunker surrounds and smaller spacing between heads[spacing has gone from 90' to 60' on some sites].....and more computer controlled bells and whistles that have become the 'I can't grow grass without them' standard of the day.

Its become too techno in my opinion.

[paul cowley]

I've noticed in the last 10 years that irrigation costs have roughly doubled....and I question it all the time.

The Barefoot course's system cost just under $700k...with an overall budget of 6M....in 1999.

A course we have currently under construction has a similar budget in a similar area but the irrigation will cost 1.2M.

A course we are building in Mexico has a irrigation contract for 2.4M....knocked down from an original estimate of 3.2M
Building rest of the course should cost around 3M.

So much of the cost has to do with the increased amount of heads because of double heads in greens loops and smaller heads in bunker surrounds and smaller spacing between heads[spacing has gone from 90' to 60' on some sites].....and more computer controlled bells and whistles that have become the 'I can't grow grass without them' standard of the day.

Its become too techno in my opinion.

Well, what do you think has changed?

[paul cowley]

I would guess its from manufacturers pushing product on Supers....combined with irrigation designers building more into into the design because its their job [and a good way to charge more for what they do].

When I was a greens keeper over 100 years ago at Pebble Beach, we didn't have irrigation in the majority of the rough.....and no plans, combined with an Am Indian irrigation tech named JD who rode all over the course in a modified dune buggy......did I tell you we had few cart paths too? mostly just sandy wear trails....now we are building sandy wear trails from scratch...instant patina.

[Chris Cupit]

Whether it has been good or bad (and it has had both effects) really doesn't matter.

The "horse is out of the barn" and no one is going to convince golfers to go back to un-irrigated turf.

One consequence of the drought in GA for my course is that we are back to cart path only to try and protect the fairways from being turned to dust.  I know this is a pro-walking site and I appreciate that but I have a large number of golfers who can not physically play without a cart and for whom cart path only is a serious burden.

No water other than from the sky  Water greens only when you must and let mother nature dictate the rest That will never fly.  You might as well roll back the ball, clubs and insist on plus fours.

PS  I love the dry conditions for the course (Brown IS beautiful ) but we need some rain, NOW!

[S. Huffstutler]

I have a love/hate relationship with irrigation. When done properly, it can be a wonderful thing, but when the members demand (Their words) " Lush green everywhere", it becomes nightmarish. I spend at least 30% of my time tweaking irrigation and I have a full time irrigation man that spends ALL of his time keeping it running. I ride a fine line all the time between too dry and too wet. Sometimes I win, sometimes, I lose.

Steve

[Peter Pallotta]

Gents, sorry if these are dumb questions but:

Who exactly makes the decision on what type of irrigation goes in (i.e. the extent of it, its level of 'sophistication', etc).  Or, if it's a joint decision, who really has the final say?

To a novice like me reading this thread, it sounds somehow like an architect can negotiate the price a little, but what the 'system' will be is already set. (But that doesn't sound right to me)

And, whoever is making the decision, what is that based on? Has the owner/developer asked for or been promised a certain 'level' of turf/greenery/look and then does the choice of system follow from that?

I asked on another thread if an architect can bring on (or at least suggest strongly) his preferred superindentent, and bring him on very early in the process. If that were the case, could it make a difference in the irrigation system decided upon?

Thanks
Peter

[Greg Cameron]

Mike,Irritation costs can be hidden,as you know,resovior liners,3 phase power for pumps,wells,retaining walls for drawdowns,pumps themselves,central controls(computers)water costs,bunker misting zones preventing wash-out and erosion,etc  and we always take the heat re costs(30% total project?)but generally speaking our technology is designed for longer lifetimes than 15-20 years ago.The slower the water moves(pipe sizes,VFDS,single head computer controlled flowzones) the longer the system lasts saving capital costs and repair labour,as does half heads saving water and pumping costs.Unlike shapers and gcas, all our work is buried and rarely any credit,only if we *$*& up,or when can we give water so walk a mile in a ditch diggers shoes........Greg

[Patrick_Mucci]

over the years has any one item done more to increase the cost of the golf experience than irrigation?

Mike,

I agree with Jim Kennedy.

With respect to automated and super-tech irrigation systems, they're being marketed and sold as cost "savers"

One would think that the highly sophisticated systems would be the most efficient and therefore, the least expensive from an operating budget perspective.

What's made them expensive is their evolved intended use.

A new Green Chairman that I know, at his first meeting with his Superintendent, told him, "I want to see Emerald Green, from wall to wall, everytime I come to this course"

I think it's the misuse of irrigation systems that has led to escalating costs.

If these modern, high-tech, sophisticated, computer driven systems are so good, why do I see crew members syringing greens with hand held hoses ?

Wasn't one of the selling point of these systems the reduction in labor costs ?[/color]

[Greg Cameron]

Mike,pay now or pay later(hand watering,repairs,labour,25 yr replacement cost)...Irritated Ditch Digger

[Greg Cameron]

Mr.Mucci,would you advocate the use of walk mowers vs. triplexes,(labour cost money)no deep tine aeration/sand topdressing?Turf needs air ,water and food,just like us.Drainage too has changed  re technology and costs why us?Kinda like seeing city crew or thier budget ,eh?....Greg

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