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Adam Clayman

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Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« on: June 06, 2007, 09:49:56 PM »
Quote
He who insists on preserving a tree where it spoils a shot should have nothing to say about golf course construction.  GEORGE C. THOMAS Jr.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re:Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2007, 10:43:26 PM »
Adam,
(edit)
I’d like to hear your thoughts on this; because honestly, while I think I know what the designer of a great short Par 4s means, it still strikes me as one of the most ‘rule-bound’ and narrow ideas that I've ever read from the old architects.

But I don't know much about George Thomas. Am I missing something, or a lot?

Peter  
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 10:48:34 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Adam Clayman

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2007, 11:22:14 PM »
Peter, My thoughts are this;
 Having grown up in Chicago, i witnessed too many courses ruined becasue of a failure to heed this mans advice.

Too many times trees are planted to stop someone from doing something. And in the case of a majority of Chicago golf, there are trees everywhere.

My objection to the antithesis of the statement goes beyond just trees. I feel strongly that altering existing courses inorder to preclude specific shots, is fundamentally flawed. Encouraging all types of shots should be the default.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Garland Bayley

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2007, 01:52:32 AM »
Could he possibly be referring to a hole like #10 at Black Forest that Tom Doak uses in his book as an example of a tree gate? Then of course there is Pete Dye who goes so far as to put (or leave) trees immediately in front of some greens.

I am happy to observe that Schack seems to be in tune with The Captain as I don't remember any trees spoiling any shots at Moorpark.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2007, 01:55:08 AM »
I guess I should further note that Chambers Bay has one tree it is out of play, but somehow makes it into all their promotional pictures. Perhaps then we have found the perfect use for trees on links courses. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2007, 08:13:34 AM »
I don't read that to mean that Thomas believed trees have no place on a golf course.  Hell, look at the diagrams in his book, a couple of them have strategic trees depicted.

I think he just meant that if a tree spoils the intent of a hole, it ought to be removed, no questions asked.  And I wouldn't argue a bit with that.

SL_Solow

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2007, 10:01:50 AM »
Peter;  If you want to know more about Thomas, get his book.  It remains a very good read and gives real insight into his thought processes.  He did a lot more than design a great short par 4.  Then if you want more, Geoff's biography helps fill in the blanks.

Peter Pallotta

Re:Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2007, 11:20:36 AM »
Adam - thanks. That's very clear, and more understandable to me than the Thomas line as it stands in that quote -- especially your last line.

SL - thanks. That is reading that I want and need to do. Still, that quote, all on its own, struck me as a little strange.  Even Tom D's refinement/explanation of it didn't really clear it up for:

that "if a tree spoils the intent of a hole" it should be removed is a clear enough sentiment, but it presupposes that the hole's intent exists as some ideal out there independent of any feature (a tree) that actually exists on the land.  

Now, that ideal/intent is in fact probably out there, in the architecht's mind, and if a single tree spoils that intent I can see removing it; but that quote seems to allow for absolutely no wiggle room, as if the intent of a hole -- prior to the hole's construction -- is so fixed and immutable a thing that we shouldn't even consider subtly on interestingly 'shifting' it a little, or complicating it a little, for the sake of a tree (or any other feature?).

As I say, I can't comment on Thomas's design philosophy, but just wanted to suggest that the quote, taking independently of any other knowledge about Thomas' ideas, seemed too restrictive.  

(By the way, if the quote means just and simply that one should be prepared to sacrifice a tree for the sake of a good golf hole, who would argue against THAT? But I assumed it couldn't be that simple.)

Peter
 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 11:35:42 AM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re:Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2007, 12:04:02 PM »
Peter:

I don't believe Thomas' remark means he felt that no tree belongs on a golf course (as some of the one-dimensional proponents on this website seem to think).

I believe Thomas merely meant that a tree should not ruin the construction of a good golf hole or compromise a good concept of one designed and built without said tree in mind.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2007, 12:09:16 PM »
Peter,

As a clarification of Tom's statement, realize that the intent of his 10th at Black Forest is to cause people to find ways to deal with the tree gate.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Geoff's Quote 6/6/07 Thomas jr., Geo. C.
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2007, 01:12:31 PM »

(By the way, if the quote means just and simply that one should be prepared to sacrifice a tree for the sake of a good golf hole, who would argue against THAT? But I assumed it couldn't be that simple.)

 

Peter, I'm sure they do argue about it.

That's what this Thomas quote meant to me. Those who nowadays argue for saving the life of a tree (or a stand of trees) that ruin the hole for all but the straightest of ball stikers, should be ignored and have no business justifying the error other than that they are the committee.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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