[Doug Ralston]

Faldo said the greens at Memorial were stimp 13, and pooh pooh'ed it, saying that they were 15 a few years ago [presumably when he played there].

Many of you, I am certain, have played a lot more fast greens that I have. Is '13' really high for a PGA Tourney?

I have only played once at that speed, at Cumberland Trail in Columbus, OH. I remember putting an 8ft uphill putt that I just barely touched, and it zoomed into the hole. Many of my putts that day were actually short, out of pure fear.

What public courses have you played that have greens this fast or faster?

Doug

[Tom Huckaby]

Having actually used a Stimpmeter and measured the speed of greens, I tend to take these claims as pretty far-fetched.  13 would be like putting on hardwood floors... 15 is like linoleum....

Let's just assume the greens are really really fast, and yes, faster than the normal tour event.

And yes, I've played some that are scary.  I find they get to a point where they become abbsurd more than anything else, and it's goofy-golf.  But whatever turns people on!

[Jordan Wall]

13 is sooo fast...even in the state tournament the greens were only about 9.5 or 10, and that was the fastest I had seen all year..

I think the greens were probably 10.5 when I played Sahalee last year, and that was almost too fast for me..

Anything above 11 is just really, really fast, and probably too fast for me.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan - right on brother - methinks some exaggeration is coming out of Ohio this week.

I'd be very surprised if the greens really were faster than 10.5-11.  That really is crazy fast, as you saw.

TH

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan - right on brother - methinks some exaggeration is coming out of Ohio this week.

I'd be very surprised if the greens really were faster than 10.5-11.  That really is crazy fast, as you saw.

TH

Tom,

I would venture as far as to say as the announcers probably know what green speeds really are, but say they are excessive as to exaggerate for the public, most of whom do not have any clue how fast 13 is -- they probably call their local course's greens 11's on the stimp.

The truth is, at 13, there has to be such minimal contours on greens to still be playable, that perhaps only boring greens are those who can achieve such green speeds without going overboard.  I heard that the US Open strives for speeds of 12 on the stimp, which doesnt seem far off, given the conditions off courses for that tournament.  I dont believe there are many, if any, other tournaments with greens faster than an honest 12 on the stimp.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan - again I say amen.  Well said.

TH

[S. Huffstutler]

There's a reason that only Dr. Joe knows the speed of the greens at the Masters...and he ain't tellin'.

Steve

[Doug Ralston]

Jordan - right on brother - methinks some exaggeration is coming out of Ohio this week.

I'd be very surprised if the greens really were faster than 10.5-11.  That really is crazy fast, as you saw.

TH

TH;

I did not say Cumberland Trail actually had stimp 13 greens ....... they claimed it! I will just say that I felt I could not control speed, it was like I have bricks instead of hands. So I overcompensated and had many putts fall short. BTW, the greens there were NOT overly contoured, though there was some.

Doug

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom and Jordan,
  I wouldn't for a second think that Muirfield's greens are anything less than 13. I've alway read that outside of Augusta, their greens are the fastest on tour. Cutting height below.080 can easily be acheived with today's greens mowers. Keep in mond, the greens are only THAT fast for a short perios of time. Many courses in my area have speeds in the 12-13 range for daily play. I would suspect that member play at Muirfield is in the 12+ mark. I was actually surprised when they said that there greens were only 13...I'd pooh, poo it to!

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Matt_Cohn]

I've played legitimate 13 greens in a tournament. It was playable, but it sure gets you worried about what happens 4-5 feet past the hole. You definitely get a number of borderline shots and some really crazy putts. Luckily the course was set up well.

To me once greens get above 11, you have to be very careful with hole locations because there is tremendous potential for goofiness. At 15 only the flattest spots would be pinnable. It would be playable in those circumstances, but unplayable if the setup were overzealous or mismanaged or if it was windy.

Legitimate 11 greens are not crazy to competitive golfers. I'd say that crazy starts at around 13, depending on how slopey the greens are.

[Brian_Sleeman]

From what I've heard Augusta's greens don't even get to that speed...more like 11 or 12, but the severe contours and slopes are what drive the misperceptions up to exaggerated numbers.

People think they're rolling at 13 or higher at Crystal Downs, when in fact they usually cut them to a speed of 11 in the early morning hours.  As the grass grows throughout the day, things slow down a smidgeon and the average speed ends up somewhere in the 10.5 range.  Considering the slope of the greens there, that's plenty fast.  

If they're truly 13 at Muirfield, they must not have a whole lot of slope to them...

[Craig Sweet]

Wasn't it last year when the PGA Tour said the AVERAGE green speed at tour events was 10.9?

I find it truly hard to believe the greens at Murfield were running 13...

and Anthony, unless you have actually measured the green yourself, I'd take those 12-13 speeds on a daily fee course as hype....sure you can get a green that fast, but for how long, and why??

[Jim Johnson]

I played at a public course called "Circling Raven" in Idaho last summer, and it was just a couple of days before they held a sectional PGA qualifier, and somebody in the pro shop casually mentioned that the greens were stimping at 11.....let's just say I'm glad that I got to hit a few putts on the practice green before teeing it up...my first practice putt I stroked right off the green!

JJ

[PThomas]

what do Oakmont's greens stimp at?

and I believe it was in Pete Dye's book that he said tha Jack told him once that they got the greens up to 16   ::)at MV

[Jesse Jones]

I must stand up for Doug.  
I played Cumberland Trail and the greens were very quick.
The pro told me before the round the greens were running at 12.
I thought they were more like 10.5 to 11.
I played DM-Outlaw this winter and they were running a true 11.5.
It's really hard to discern green speeds after 11.
Its like the cold. Its hard to tell the difference in temprature between 5 and  10 below zero.  

[Doug Ralston]

Jesse;

Thanks. I do not know how fast they really were when I played, but I hope I never have to play a more severely contoured green at that speed; there would be no keeping it on the green.

Doug

[TEPaul]

Doug:

A "real" 13 is basically bullshit and stating the greens are 15 is way beyond bullshit----eg let's just call it an impossibility unless someone does not understand how to stimp a green's speed.

Furthermore, I'm genuiniely surprised by that statement by Faldo----I thought he was smarter than that.

[Jim Nugent]

Whatever the actual speed of the greens, there was some red-hot putting out there.  O'Hair averaged 1.533 putts per GIR, and that was only 11th best.  Pampling, a co-leader, averaged 1.385 per GIR.  Heron, who is one stroke back, averaged 1.420 putts per GIR.

Are MV's greens easy to putt?  Looks like the field is putting way better than the season averages.  

[Evan_Smith]

I think that's one of the issues with PGA golf these days.  When you get crazy fast greens, you can't put pins on any kind of slope, so the pros make a lot of putts because all they have to do is barely get the ball started and if they read the break correctly, the ball will find the bottom of the cup.  If they had to putt on smooth greens that were running between 9-10 on the stimp, the pins could be placed where there is more slope and it would be harder for them to make the putt.  Also, the harder you have to hit a putt, the more likely you are to hit it offline.  I say slow the greens down and the scores will come down as well.  There won't be as much need to have 7500 yard courses to defend par.

[Chris Cupit]

15  

13 and poo pooing it

I can't believe that.  I have played Muirfield and the greens have some pretty good slope to them.  I don't see how they would be playable above 12.  They were damn near pefect and you could make a lot of putts if your were rolling it well.

Most people have no idea how significant the difference is in a green stimping say 10 to one stimping 11.  That alone is a huge difference.  Above 11 the diffrences are so great that I find those speeds hard to believe.

[Jordan Wall]

Sometimes I wonder if even the pros know how fast the tournament greens actually stimp.


In a GD interview article probably last year, John Daly said something like the greens at Augusta were only rolling a '17' due to rain...
 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Craig,
  No where in my comment did I mention that the courses I was talking about were daily fee. I'm strickly talking about the private courses. In fact, I know of a course here that hosted at tournament last August (On an ultradwarft grass) and theeir greens for the 3 days of the tournament were 12.9, 13.1 and 13. How do I know? I was with there with the superintendent. In fact, I was even on a Nicklaus course. I can be done, it is done and the pins were fair. I had our greens running 12.5 many times this winter, but we have to be very careful about pin selection. As long as the pins are fair, the fast the better. Look at Oakmont. 12.5-13 or more for daily member play.....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI,SC

[Jeff_Brauer]

A superintendent friend of mine at a top 50 club gave a presentation to ASGCA and members while we played there.  After announcing his greens ran at 11 everyday in the presentation, he told me later that they keep them at 10, but say 11 for the members benefit.  

I mean, really, how many members watch the super use the stimp?  So, its a little exageration that gives the members bragging rights, fast greens, and some reaonsable putts.

Like PGA Tour driving distances, I tend to agree with Jordan, based on that comment, that there is pressure to exagerate.  That said, when I have played MV, which has been a while, they were clearly among the fastest greens I had played.

[Anthony_Nysse]

For a short period of time this is acheivable with low fertility, low mowing heights, growth regulators, and the proper amount of rolling and mowing. Weather plays a roll inot this also as both ultradwarfts and bentgrass have selected times of year where it's easier and safer to acheive those speeds. Only several years ago, Muirfield was reseeding there greens because of the stress put on them for the tournament-the stress allowed of poa, etc.....It's well within reach...

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Doug Ralston]

Listened to Nicklaus talking to the broadcast crew today. They all agreed the greens DID stimp 13-14. They also had stories of faster greens. Nicklaus seemed to like fast flat greens, commenting on the skill to hit a straight putt 'into the back of the cup'.

Doug

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