News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Andy Troeger

Templates
« on: May 18, 2007, 05:59:18 PM »
I know this has been discussed before in various versions, but in reading the comments on another thread I want to bring it up again.

A couple of comments about Coore/Crenshaw at We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and also at times about Jim Engh courses have commented about how they tend to repeat some of the same themes or templates on their designs. I've played 2-3 courses by each and have noticed it a little bit, but I don't have the depth of experience with either one to have much comment.

Obviously then you've got MacDonald/Raynor that made their style out of template holes and have done very well for themselves. Meanwhile, other designers that build a lot of courses (Tom Fazio, Pete Dye...etc) also have been critiqued at times for building the same holes multiple times.

To me eventually the question becomes...if the theme/template/hole is good the first time, why is it not seen as good again if its repeated? Realistically, there are only so many ways to get from a point A (tee) to point B (hole). If a designer builds even 50 courses over the course of their career, isn't it a bit unrealistic to think they are not going to get a bit repetitive? Is there any architect that has built that many courses without getting repetitive?

I guess my real thought is...is We-Ko-Pa Saguaro or Redlands Mesa (or any course) better if you haven't seen the other courses that might share design features with it? How much do (and should) other courses played by a particular architect affect our view of the next course we play by that same architect?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2007, 07:46:16 PM »
Great question.

Do architects repeat themselves?

Do architects repeat themselves?

I guess so! ;)

Ba Da Bing, Ba Da Boom.....Seriously folks.....

I agree that a good hole concept is a good hole concept and its the most natural thing in the world to repeat.  Its a good concept because it plays or looks well to golfers, and golfers are who we are trying to please, not "the land."  Even if the same golfer plays two courses with the same hole, if he likes it one place, why would he not like it another?

And, on the architects side, there is no way on God's green earth that you design or even play even one golf course without picking favorite ideas out to use again, usually in somewhat modified form to fit the land that suggests itself - the classic example being the reverse Redan.  My mentor used to be comfy in using 15 "tried and true" concepts and trying 3-4 "new" (for them) ideas on each course.  I think way out of the box, and kind of lean to 12-6 ratios! ;)

Now, gca's will tell you that they don't ever copy or repeat (either themselves, or others)  And, the truth is, they are lying through their teeth. Whether RTJ, Tom Fazio or Tom Doak, they use their best ideas over again in some way, while telling the world that its an original design and the best ever etc. for marketing reasons.  

Frankly, I should say such things, but I prefer to keep my posts in a BS free zone, which in some ways is not great for marketing golf design serivces!

I would love the Fazio problem of designing so many courses that I would have to repeat myself.  I just hit 50 for my career, and I have repeated somewhat - again usually the faves like Redan, Road Hole, Biarritz, etc.   Unlike Dye, Raynor, etc. who seem to have about 21 templates, I count at least 37 templates - meaning I can do a 36 hole course, but if I get that call for the 54 hole golf center, I will be exposed as a true fraud!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2007, 10:12:34 PM »
I think the really cool thing about templates is the way they overlay and fit a new topography. A redan may be a redan in basic theory, but the variations are the life of the hole.

It's like having standards in music. Amazing Grace may be a spiritual standard, but the question is - what does the artist do with it? Do you like Dolly Parton's version (seriously - and no Himalaya or Alps cracks!) or Mahalia Jackson? Do you like a soulful instrumental on the flute, or do you like the full choir? Etc., etc.

And the really cool thing is that the original template may not be the best version. Pardon the philosophy, but it is like Plato's cave and a true image of the chair. Is there a "true" chair? Maybe there is a perfect shot value that we are seeking, and so we find the land and shape it to find the "true" receptor of that perfect shot value...now we do that over and over through the 18 holes.

OK, my brain hurts - What say all of you?
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2007, 10:19:07 PM »
Jeff,

Victor Wooten does an "amazing" Amazing Grace in many of his bass solos as part of the Bela Fleck and The Flecktones concerts.....that's the kind of funky music I want at my funeral... :)

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Templates
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2007, 10:24:47 PM »
What about a style distinctive to an architect imposed on a template invented / "discovered" by another architect?

MacKenzie-esque bunkers on a Cape hole:


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Templates
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2007, 09:15:35 AM »
Jeff:  I hate to disagree with you, but ... well, no, I love to disagree with you on topics like these.

I guess the question really revolves around the meaning of the word "template".  Everyone who went through architecture school or landscape architecture school is familiar with plastic templates to draw circles or curves or other features which are often repeated.  In fact, a cookie cutter is a kind of template.  If we labeled this thread "cookie cutter design" would you still be in favor?

Yes, I agree with you that there are general concepts of design which are repeated continuously from course to course ... diagonal bunkering, central fairway bunkering, etc.

But I don't like the idea of it turning into a true template where the entire hole is repeated.  I went around Vaquero in Dallas yesterday and their fourth hole is a Tom Fazio ode to the tenth at Riviera, but with 1/10th the guts of the original ... the green was bigger and less tilted, there was less open ground out to the right to lure you that way, it was a little longer and less driveable.

Another designer who I won't name has certain grading templates in his CAD system, so he can just take the tenth hole at Riviera with its complete grading and plop it down on 320 yards of real estate anywhere on earth and let the computer tie in the contours.

That's the possibility of templates in today's world ... a total abdication of originality.  Defend it at your peril.

P.S.  Sorry I was in Dallas yesterday and didn't have time to look you up.  But it looks like I may be making more visits soon.

Andy Troeger

Re:Templates
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2007, 09:28:40 AM »
For my point, I did not really mean "template holes" although they're obviously one way this is done.

The criticism that I don't understand is when you start taking those themes, the diagonal bunkering, central fairway bunkering, green shapes, sizes, contours, etc, and critiquing a course because you've seen those themes out of a designer before.

To try to put it rather simply, if a course is good and uses good elements of design, who cares if a designer has used the same themes on a different piece of land half a continent away?

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2007, 10:56:30 AM »
But I don't like the idea of it turning into a true template where the entire hole is repeated.  I went around Vaquero in Dallas yesterday and their fourth hole is a Tom Fazio ode to the tenth at Riviera, but with 1/10th the guts of the original ... the green was bigger and less tilted, there was less open ground out to the right to lure you that way, it was a little longer and less driveable.

Another designer who I won't name has certain grading templates in his CAD system, so he can just take the tenth hole at Riviera with its complete grading and plop it down on 320 yards of real estate anywhere on earth and let the computer tie in the contours.


I'm sure you are speaking to the other Jeff, but I do LOVE the 10th at Riviera. Tom, in my post I was thinking along the lines of a template of shot values and strategies that Riv10 uses. When you lay those on a new land form (rolling hills, etc.) or type (Links/Dunes, Mountain) you'll get a whole new hole. Even the green and bunker features would change - BUT the shot values and strategy could be similar. In fact the values could be on purpose and few would ever know.

Your 6th at Pacific Dunes seems to have this to me, especially if you are not playing the back tees. The hole is mirrored in shot values, but they seem to require much of the same thinking and execution. Both holes have an at first obvious line and a possibility of driving the ball very close to the green. The best play though is out to an area that does not look the best from the tee (left on Riv10, right on Pac6). What I love about Pac6 is that it favors the high handicap player better than Riv10, as a big, but solidly hit, slice/fade puts them in a good approach spot. The low man comes to Pac10 and hits a big drive with a touch more draw than wanted and the approach is an almost impossible wedge (ball above the feet, huge bunker in front, steep drop behind on a narrow green...) Great stuff to me!
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Templates
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2007, 11:04:47 AM »
Jeff:
 
For that matter, the sixteenth at Pacific Dunes is also like the tenth at Riviera, with the angle of its green and the bunkers on the outside of the dogleg, something I rarely do.

I'm sure anyone could point out a host of similarities between great holes, I just hate it when a designer oversimplifies the process to cut and paste, and it happens a lot, even among many of the best.  When I see my associates start to do it, I quickly move them in another direction.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2007, 11:09:07 AM »
For my point, I did not really mean "template holes" although they're obviously one way this is done.

The criticism that I don't understand is when you start taking those themes, the diagonal bunkering, central fairway bunkering, green shapes, sizes, contours, etc, and critiquing a course because you've seen those themes out of a designer before.

To try to put it rather simply, if a course is good and uses good elements of design, who cares if a designer has used the same themes on a different piece of land half a continent away?

Andy,

You are speaking more to styles - correct? Like the Pete Dye Railroad Ties for many years, or the super long RTJ runway tees - correct?

I think it shows most in the bunker styles and green surrounds. With some designers their work is often like a musical group that may be very good and fun to listen to, but they do have a certain sound and style. Like the Top 40, a lot of people like the Fazio/Nicklaus style, so it gets repeated time after time. The developer wants a popular course like course X in Y County. I do like the renaissance we are seeing as Fazio, Nicklaus, and RTJ2 and others who have been in the industry a long time are putting out courses that are pushing their creativity to new places.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2007, 11:28:57 AM »
Tom,

Of course you do! Its part of your marketing personna.

I have played Vaquero and just looked up the 4th (and 13th on the small chance you were turned around) and I don't see much of an ode to Riviera 10 from my experience, or your description!

As you say, it depends on the definition of template.  If you call Vaquero 4 a template that is obviously modified quite a bit at what % of modification does it become an original hole?  I guess no one cares, really, just that it is a good hole, as Andy suggests. However, when you modify just to make it different, you might lose the details that made the original great, as well.

To me there is a difference between cookie cutter, whereby the hole is truly plopped in via computer and use of a template concept that has worked before on similar ground.  So, its semantics, but no, I don't agree with cookie cutters, because they probably won't work exactly as is in a new situation.  

Whatever you call it, when you start the design of a new hole, it ought to be considered as an original. As an example,

If playing in stronger winds and with new clubs, would you use the exact same length of the 10 at Riv, or change it as you saw fit?  

With modern green speeds would you flatten the green a touch or no?  Would grass types, wind direction irrigation or other factors also cause the green on a "concept" hole to be modified somewhat?

Would the land afford the same big carry bunker or would it fit better to break that bunker into two or three, perhaps at different levels.  If it fit a bit shorter (or longer) than the original, would you make the bunker deeper than the original to restore or enhance the penalty.

I think Raynor did a fair job of picking land to fit his templates in seamlessly.  To me, that, and the ability to see where it must be modified a bit to fit the ground and make it work is what makes the use of templates that play well also be good architecture.  My only complaint with Seth was that he and a few others limit themselves to too few templates.  I think there are more, and every time I play a new course, I see twists on the same basic ideas that are different enough to be considered original.

For fun, I went back to my "hip pocket" list of design ideas I prefer and came up with 32 Tee shot concepts and 49 green concepts.  While there are some I would never mix and match, that provides over 1500 original design combos using similar elements for par 4 holes.  Thus, there isn't too much need to repeat my self to closely from design to design if I choose not to.  

On the other hand, I figure I might as well stick with the top half of my ideas at least, limiting me to 750.  I guess that might be cutting it close and we may see a duplicate Brauer par 4 at some point in the future!

Please look me up next time you are in DFW. I am literally 5 miles from the airport.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Ward

Re:Templates
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2007, 11:34:57 AM »
Andy:

The point you raised is a good one -- let me just say this. If a certain person (past or present) does such repetitive items time after time -- it may be viewed completely differently. Throw in another name -- likely someone less high on the design totem pole and they may be skewed for a lack of originality.

The issue with Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa for me is that it doesn't cut any NEW ground on what C&C are doing. Frankly, from the more recent lot of courses they've designed I have not seen the spark that lights my fire of desire to see them.

I've often said no designer hits home runs with each design --unfortunately, there are people who see certain few designers and no matter what comes forward are falling over themselves to proclaim how great and how stupendous the work is when it's likely a good bit less than some of their more noted efforts.


Andy Troeger

Re:Templates
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2007, 11:36:00 AM »
Jeff D.
Style might not be a bad word for it. Pete Dye is probably the architect of whose work I am most familiar, and the thing I've enjoyed about playing his courses is that while the style is often similar, by playing courses of his done at different periods and in different areas there is still tremendous variety in the courses I've played. Thing of the differences between The Golf Club and Crooked Stick compared to Harbour Town compared to Whistling Straits compared to Blackwolf Run. Similar design principles in some regards, but tremendous variety of experiences. And those are just the ones I've seen.

We-Ko-Pa Saguaro is the course that made me create this topic. I admit that the bunkering and green complexes there certainly reminded me of the Warren Course at Notre Dame. However, again, the course itself was different because of the vastly different terrains and the way the course was presented even. Both were designed to be walking courses and have a good variety of holes IMO.

Andy Troeger

Re:Templates
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2007, 11:41:13 AM »
Andy:

The issue with Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa for me is that it doesn't cut any NEW ground on what C&C are doing. Frankly, from the more recent lot of courses they've designed I have not seen the spark that lights my fire of desire to see them.


Matt,
Would you feel differently if We-Ko-Pa was the first Coore/Crenshaw course that you had played, thus taking away your ability to compare it to their other work?

Also, in your opinion, is their work there good, just similar to their previous efforts, or is it that you just do not find that specific course to be that great period?

I've only played three of their courses (with a 4th coming soon) so I don't have much basis for comparison.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2007, 11:45:58 AM »
Matt (and Andy)

That, I suppose is Andy's point - does it need to cut new ground if the holes work?

The best argument for cutting new ground is that now matter how solid a hole is, no one design style or idea is a "perfect challenge." At best it challenges a certain skill.  Thus, any course ought to have challenge variety and there are more challenges out there than 18.

When gca's repeat themselves, they fall into the possible pattern of designing "hard putting" or "hard approach" courses.  Again, there would be no problem if the gca's templates acheived "perfect design balance" but there is really no such thing, so a course should change from site to site.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Andy Troeger

Re:Templates
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2007, 11:53:03 AM »
Jeff B.
I think you've hit exactly my point. I like courses that have internal variety. The best courses challenge every portion of the players game at some point in the round (without overemphasizing one part over another preferably).

It is interesting to me to see an architect use their way of doing just that over different sites and terrains to create unique experiences. Some of the methods have to be the same, but without a variety of sites it seems like the results have enough subtle differences that variety is still created.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Templates
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2007, 12:28:13 PM »
Matt:

"I've often said no designer hits home runs with each design"

To continue your baseball analogy, if you try to hit a home run every time out you will strike out often.  It's better to go with the pitch.  Not every pitch is up in the zone and right down the middle.  But, to give you some credit, you can't always try for a single to the opposite field, either ... you'll sometimes wind up with a weak pop up there.

Jeff:

My example of Vaquero was just that it was obvious to me where the idea of the hole came from ... Fazio is consulting at Riviera and the two newest Fazio courses I've seen have almost-driveable par-4's with a long, skinny green angling 75 degrees off to the right.  I don't think that's a coincidence, and on the Vaquero hole at least, there wasn't any natural feature of the ground to suggest the green type or the strategy.  (For that matter, neither is there any natural feature in play on the tenth at Riviera, maybe that's what reminded them of it.)

But then they took that concept and, to my mind, dumbed it down.  The differences between Vaquero and Riviera are all about maintainability and playability trumping challenge ... there's nothing in the newer hole that is a result of the terrain, they simply took a great hole and made it okay.  If they had taken a great concept and improved it, I would feel entirely differently about it.

Of course, there wasn't yet a Fazio course on the north side of Dallas which had such a hole, so by Andy's standard, this hole is a new experience for the Vaquero members (except for their Tour pro members, who are all familiar with Riviera).

I just want the holes to feel like they came off the ground and not off a list in my back pocket.  I've made those lists, but I don't use them much.

Andy Troeger

Re:Templates
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2007, 12:34:08 PM »
But then they took that concept and, to my mind, dumbed it down.  The differences between Vaquero and Riviera are all about maintainability and playability trumping challenge ... there's nothing in the newer hole that is a result of the terrain, they simply took a great hole and made it okay.  If they had taken a great concept and improved it, I would feel entirely differently about it.

Of course, there wasn't yet a Fazio course on the north side of Dallas which had such a hole, so by Andy's standard, this hole is a new experience for the Vaquero members (except for their Tour pro members, who are all familiar with Riviera).


Tom,
My standard would be that if the hole were equally as good as the one at Riviera that it should not be dismissed for being similar. If its not as good, that's another issue.

I agree totally with your mention of improving on already great concepts. Trying to copy something rarely works as well as the original, trying to improve on it creates variety and maybe an even better version.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2007, 12:38:26 PM »
Andy,

This thread also got me thinking about those Bear's Best courses or Tour 18 designs. They just have no appeal for me.

I think that is the biggest challenge for Old MacDonald.My hope is that the committee can capture the spirit and theory of CBM, and yet produce something that CBM himself might design if he came back to life today. Kind of like Geoff's - The Good Doctor Returns.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Matt_Ward

Re:Templates
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2007, 01:32:49 PM »
Jeff:

To answer your point succintly -- if I see the holes as being nothing more than a previous version of what's been done prior to that -- what's the point in playing the so-called "new" holes?

When Pete Dye created TPC / Sawgrass the need to see PGA West / Stadium went out the window in my book.

I guess I am somewhat naive to believe that originality or doing something against type is what can be done. Too often architects continue to crank out the same type of courses simply because clients want what was done previously. While this may be good for business it suffers in the long haul because the same predictable result will happen. Frankly, I feel the same way with a number of Raynor courses too.

It's no different than what most actors face -- if they stay in the same role for too long they limit themselves to other possibilities.

Andy:

I've played a representative share of C&C courses. If Saguaro was the first I'd probably would not feel as strong as I do. But, when this very talented duo started with the likes of Sand Hills and a few others prior to it, the ultimate height of the bar and its related expectations was far greater.

Saguaro isn't a bad course -- it's just that they have done far better overall work and to be totaally fair -- the competition that I have played has also raised their production / output level as well (see Vista Verde as just one example).

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2007, 02:00:10 PM »
Matt,

You are of course, one of the rare birds who does get around to play just about everything.  95% of golfers play 95% of golf locally, or perhaps even on their home course.

But since there is more travel these days, I guess it does point out the need for the national gca to vary his style since it may be more apparent.

Tom,

We could argue where Faz got the idea. No point. I agree that holes should spring out of the ground.  But there are play concepts that we likely replicate, hopefully where put in places where they fit naturally.  Good play concept and fitting the land are equally important, IMHO.  We aren't designing for the land, we are designing for the golfer.

So, we really aren't that far apart, I just admit that I have some preconcieved ideas from somewhere, just like Dye had them from Scotland, rather than insist that everything is brank spanking new.  As CBM (I think) and others have said, whenever I think I have done something totally new, I see it on some old course within a year!

Lots of philosophical questions to ask regarding this - and all for fun - but I must go pick up my son from a golf tourney.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Andy Troeger

Re:Templates
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2007, 02:16:42 PM »
Matt,
Thanks for the reply, I just wanted to understand where you were coming from.

Compared to Warren at ND and TSN I think Saguaro compares very well. Compared to Friar's Head and Sand Hills...maybe not :)

Matt_Ward

Re:Templates
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2007, 04:26:04 PM »
Jeff:

The issue isn't about the exposure of Joe Sixpack -- you are 1000% correct -- for the guy.gal who simply plays in the desert SW the fanfare tied to PGA West / Stadium is utterly fine because they likely will not play / travel to see what the original layout (TPC / Sawgrass) is about.

Nonetheless, I do think that critical reviews need to see just how the work product of a given architect is evolving. No doubt the idea that finished work is making $$ is part of the equation but for me the "art" element is the ultimate barometer. However, I readily admit that "art" alone is not what pays the bills for those in the profession.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2007, 04:31:28 PM »
Matt,

More deep thoughts!  I think the evolving part is more important to the gca than the joe sixpack, to whom each golf course might be like, well a sixpack, pretty much the same.

I fear ever hearing "Well, that's anoher Brauer course" in the same vein that you mention CC earlier in the thread.  I don't like doing the same thing on principle, and I wonder if I can get work repeating myself.  While golfers might not evaluate work like that, potential clients often do, and in looking to distinguish one gca from another, the hint that one is "stale" would probably put them out of the running in a hurry.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Templates
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2007, 07:36:31 AM »
I think good designers, regardless of what field they are in, need to practice continuous improvement.....taking stock of what has worked and applying that to future designs, and recognizing what doesn't work and trying to eliminate it from the process........least one's ideas begin to gel [thicken] and stagnate.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2007, 07:40:41 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back