News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« on: April 27, 2007, 03:06:40 PM »
 :o :o :o

Well, on our recent trip to finally see the Pacific Northwest, I was lucky enough to be offered a walking tour of Chamber Bay, through arrangement by RTJjr assoicate architect Jay Blasi, guided by Golf Professional with Kemper Sports, Nyk Pike.  Their website is up and running, with interesting commentary by the Superintendent on the turf grow-in, and comments by the design team.  

www.chambersbaygolf.com

Unfortunatly, I missed Tommy Naccarato by about 36 hours, because we had to be on our return flight home the next day.  Also, I regret I didn't get to play a few holes of preview(as Tommy did  ::) ;) 8) ) , but I did get some interesting pics and comments from Nyk Pike which were very helpful to understand the scope of what all the design features entail.  This is a seriously robust golf design, with so many interesting features, that I am certain one could play it 100 times and find new and exciting design/play variations every new time around.  I am also certain that this new public course (owned by the municipality and managed by Kemper Sports) will get as much discussion on GCA.com as any new premier course of the last several years.  

A couple of features that blew me down were:

While this is not a minimalist and lightly laid upon the land links/dunes course like BallyNeal, Bandon courses, Sand Hills, etc., the excavation, shaping/contouring and finish work is brilliant.  Unlike what is seen at for example Whistling Straits, the work feels much more emmulating of natural coastal dunes.  Yes, there is significant 'containment' between some hole corridors, and shaping generally funnels errant shots back towards FWs, but not everywhere.  It is a great blend of corridor containment and wide enough fairways to fairly deal with the wind and keep play moving, yet plenty of waste areas and shaped dunes, soon to be more fully grown fescue native areas, where errant and poor ball striking will be appropriately and proportionately penalized.  I hope that the rough native grass management is able to maintain that ideal balance to find balls, advance/play them to the proportionate level of penalty, and keep the game moving.  I think they will.  

The shaping is in fairways is excellent and so varied as to offer multitudes of desired lines of charm, turbo boast LZ goals to attempt to negotiate, garden spots for considered pin placements, and a ground game that will always be an option, due to the mowing concept of one cut from teeing ground through enourmously wide green surrounds.  

I can't say enough about the brilliance of the free form tees that are mowed straight though to fairways, with one cut, and providing the ultimate in varied course set-up and distance options.  While Tom Doak's BallyNeal design has this same similar concept, Chambers Bay is actually beyond to another level in this feature.  Don't be mislead by the pictogram graphics of the teeing grounds on the Chambers Bay layout on their website where it appears there are specific teeing pads.  The entire area is variably teeable leading to mindboggling set-up and adjustment options to deal with wind and conditions and skill levels.

The greens, approaches and surrounds are mowed to the same height as FWs, and must be the most creatively contoured, exciting greens work RTJjr has ever presented (saying that without actually only personally having experienced more than 3 RTJjr courses).  The surrounds will lead to all manner of hummocks and hollows as Ross and MacKenzie often spoke of in their primer books on GCA.  With seriously and cleverly contoured greens, full of soap dishes, segmented terraces, boomers, kick pad approaches, deflector noses, varied front to back and and back to front and side sloping; the serious and frequent golfer of Chambers Bay will never be bored, overconfident, or underchallenged to keep his brain in gear and his heart rate under control.  

The property is significantly below a public drive and park-rec walkway overlook, with the 8th hole corridor running 700+ yards below.  Along with other areas within the course where the FWs are below significant high grounds with slopes leading down to FWs, bunkering etc., I trust that sufficient drainage and interceptors were installed to deal with run-down of water.  Remarkably, I did not see ubiquitous drains within FWs and surrounds as is found at many such severly sloped courses.  The obvious gravel-sand mine underlayers of the golf course canvass appears to be handling the significant recent rain that was in the area the weeks I was out there.  I found the course remarkably firm considering the grow-in phase of timing and recent rains.  

With other public walkway easements within the course, this is a true community gem of which the area citizens can be proud. And, with plenty of room within for viewing stands, can you say, US OPen?  8)

Which leads me to make a closing first post comment... PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP!  I had the opportunity to speak to a few of the grounds crew and staff in my short tour.  The level of PRIDE by the crew to be part of something so excellent in their home community was palpable in every excited utterance they offered to me about their job or role on the staff.  They 'know' they are sitting on something very special.  

They have plans to make this course affordable for the community residents, yet also within range of the travelling golfer who seeks to get an affordable, perhaps once in a lifetime chance to play a course of this magnitude.  I hope they keep that philosophy of offering this course to golfers within a means that is not outrageously expensive such as other public resorts like American Club courses, Bandon Resorts, and Pebble Beaches of the golf world.  Perhaps the community/municipal nature of the ownership will be the guiding restraint to keep this one within the reach of the golf public at large...

I'll try to get photos up later, but the website and I'm sure other good photographers will constantly be posting better than I have, since Chambers Bay will also be one that serious golf photographers will seek to capture.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matthew Schulte

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2007, 04:11:02 PM »
Dick:

Is the transition (walk) between #14 and #15 as awkward as it appears from the routing photograph?  Do groups walk behind the 12th tee to get to the 15th tee?

 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2007, 04:23:25 PM »
Thanks for the thorough writeup, sounds like a neat place.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2007, 04:23:28 PM »
Matt, no I didn't find that transition apparently awkward at all.  But again, I wasn't actually playing and there were no other golfers to watch pace of play.  The walk is through some sheltered dunes, and a pretty short stroll.  Because of the momentary walk, it might actually be of benefit to not have the pace of play choke or stall there.  Of course, a full tee sheet of new golfers that never have played will be an early test, somewhat mitigated by caddies, and it is a walking only course.  

The double tee of 12 and 15 reminded me some of Medinah (also 12 and 15 tees)  

PS: trustme George, my preliminary write up is by no means 'thorough'  ;) ;D  There is no way I could have seen nor describe things out there thoroughly in a walk through.  I am on pins and needles waiting for Tommy Naccarato's observations, as the lucky Calabrese got to play a few holes!  ;D 8)

The day after I left, they were going to have an employee tournament.  I'll bet they had a ball!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2007, 04:26:46 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim Nugent

Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2007, 01:45:51 AM »
Is there any possibility, or plans, to turn this into a multi-course destination, ala Bandon?  

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2007, 01:49:33 AM »
Sure, if you will drive about 5.5-6 hours - south on 5 then over to coast...

Perhaps Nyk Pike will chime in if there is any contemplated relationships or marketing plan that Kemper Sports might be considering to feature a PacNorwest coastal golf tour in conjunction with BR.  I feel sure of one thing; CB will stand up to any comparative in terms of design and excitment to play.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt_Ward

Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2007, 01:19:40 PM »
RJ:

When is the expected opening of the course ?

Thanks ...

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2007, 04:05:54 PM »
I think the website says 6/23...
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Jesse Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2007, 06:48:40 PM »
I walked the course during the employee outing.
The course is impressive.
It is not horribly difficult, but there is so much diversity of play.  
So many angles and options.
Easily the best RTJ2 I've seen.
I'll have more later.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 01:17:10 AM by Jesse Jones »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2007, 07:58:18 PM »
Jesse, do you think that it is like Pinehurst II in that it don't look too difficult with all the close mowed greens surrounds, width, etc., but fast firm greens leading well away from putting surface leads to many extra strokes if you don't play accurate to the right parts of the greens and hold them?  I thought at first it looked very playable and not too tough, until I started contemplating what all can actually happen, particularly on approach shots.  I see a lot of 3 and even 4 putts, and de-greenings in store if one is not very thoughtful with some of the potential pin positions.  Man, they sure have plenty of places on those greens for interesting pin placements!  Any idea how Nyk and some of the better employee players did?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2007, 08:56:45 PM »
Thanks for the great report. From everything I've seen so far this looks to be a lot like Arcadia Bluffs. Is that a fair comparison?

I'm looking forward to the images.

Thanks, Jeff
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Jesse Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2007, 01:16:22 AM »
RJ,

You make a good point about Pinehurst#2. Several greens are just diabolical. And just like "The Deuce" the real challenge is not off the tee, it's the green complexes.
So you have a similar situation on both courses with high CR with a relatively low slope.

Tips
#2 75.9 138
CB  76.9 135

Remember this-"The Deuce" doesn't sit hard by the bay.
Once the wind starts blowing at CB--watch out.

I wasn't able to find out the staff's scores. I was on my way to Mama's house which is nearby. Mama always comes first.
And I have the feeling I'm going to be seeing alot more of her now.
I just think the course is special.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2007, 11:13:46 AM »
I can hardly wait to stand on the 9th tee, in beautiful weather with the sound, the islands, and the Olympics in the background. As I wrote Jay Blasi, the 9th may be my favorite par 3 in the world and I haven't even played it!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2007, 06:35:13 PM »
Just to supply a few comments on some of the questions asked above.  

Chambers is now taking tee times on there website.  First day is June 23rd.  1st drive to be hit by Pierce County Executive John Ladenburg who has been a driving force behind the construction of the course.  Some would have preferred Ryan Moore, Michael Putnam or Ken Still to hit the first shot but politics are politics.  

The project in total has cost approximately $24 million.  The course alone is at about $21 million.  Not including the $10  million or so for purchase of the land.

The Chambers property is 900 acres and includes the 250 acre golf course, a sewage treatment facility and a lengthy section along Chambers Creek which incidentally runs on the northern edge of my home course, Oakbrook Golf & Country Club.  Although the property is very large, there are no plans on building another course.  The original plan had the Chambers Bay project to include 27 holes.  At the urging of the Kemper people, probably Josh Leznick, the project was scaled back to "the best eighteen available."  The master plan for the  property has other uses for the remaining space.  Although the flat nature f it would provide an excellent staging area for a major event.  

Also of future interest will be the acceptance of the course by the community.  While rates for Pierce County residents are lower than those available to the public, they are still considerably higher than any fee charged by other facilities in the south sound.  Fees and hiring of mangement almost entirely from outside Puget Sound has led to some pretty hard feelings within the region.  The locals are shouldering the risk while all of the attention on attracting players has been focused elsewhere.  A critical acceptance of the course should help win them over but it remains an interesting story.  Bandon had some of the same issues prior to their opening.  

On my own walk of the course in February, I was impressed by the look of the course.  However without any trees and an insistent drizzle it was very difficult to get an idea of the actual shot qualities on the course.  After my own opportunity to hit a few shots in a few weeks, I will have a better idea f how the course will play.  I will say Chambers is  visually stunning. It also features a train track that provides great sound effects as the train and its whistle swirl around the Chambers bowl.  This is a theme unitentionally carried form Safeco field in Seattle.  

Finally purchase information on the nearby Dupont Clean up site course is imminent.  The opening of Chambers and Dupont will provide two 7500+ yard courses within close proximity.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a US Midam or US amateur here before the much ballyhooed oportunity for any other tournament.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2007, 08:19:02 PM »
$21 million for the course, outside of land costs? That's astounding, even in an era when $1 million a hole isn't that unusual. Isn't this course on reclaimed land -- an old sand pit or such? How could it possibly cost $21 million under those conditions to build this course. Kingsbarns was on a bland piece of property, and I know the costs for that were no where near this estimate.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2007, 08:36:48 PM »
$21 million for the course, outside of land costs? That's astounding, even in an era when $1 million a hole isn't that unusual. Isn't this course on reclaimed land -- an old sand pit or such? How could it possibly cost $21 million under those conditions to build this course. Kingsbarns was on a bland piece of property, and I know the costs for that were no where near this estimate.

Wow.
jeffmingay.com

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2007, 10:13:16 PM »
It would be good if Jay Blasi or Nyk Pike would come on here to explain the construction process, which was much more to it than pushing a bit of sand around to scratch out a few holes in a minimalist fashion.  

They had to remove the top layers and set them aside (1.4 cubic yards to screen, reportedly) then ammend that with coconut coir, which is being recognized as superior material for providing a medium for retaining beneficial microbials, nutrients, perk, and as an peat organics substitute.  

The site needed major sub grading and shaping to reclaim the sand and gravel mine scaring before the new top rootzone layerswere capped on top.  I imagine there has to be significant drainage scheme on the very steep hillsides to intercept water run-down.  

I have a hunch, some cutting edge techniques were employed here, not to mention the turf selections and maintenance and mowing plans.  

21 mil does sound like a lot, however.

I see some similarities to Arcadia Bluffs in possible site problems to grade and shape it out.  But the two courses are presented pretty different stylistically.  Not that AC isn't very good too.  But, CB appears special to me, and may mature into a real world class venue.

One thing about it is that it is not a major commitment to get to.  Particularly for the people that might have other business in the Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia area.  You can just drop by and play rather than have to make a major trek into the hinterlands to get to a place like Bandon, or places in the Sand Hills.  This course is going to be within easy reach of any of the metro residents or its multitudes of visitors.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2007, 09:01:21 AM »
I wondered if there was some reclaiming that needed to be done and was included in the cost. I guess it is still a cost of building the golf course, but it is not directly related to the design....
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2007, 10:03:44 AM »
RJ, Any pictures yet?

I'm really looking forward to getting up there!


Side question: Has any GCA posted as many green details and the level of site map that we've seen at Chambers? The PDF site map is about 3MB and the green detail maps and sketches are very insightful.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2007, 03:35:30 PM »
Dick, You are to be commended for once again raising the level of discussion. Thanks for your descriptions and myonly wish is that others who continue to fill the bandwith with inane comments and statements re-read your eloquent post here and strive to someday equal your knowledge and sharing.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2007, 03:47:03 PM »
The other interesting thing that Nyk told me is that there is discussionto change 2 holes' par for tournament play, including the 12th, which could be changed fron a 304 yard par 4 to a 250 uphill par three.  It would then make it par 70.

Also, the fescue blend grass will be kept a little longer than for example what you see at Bandon or Ballyneal.  I am interested to see if that affects how fast the course will play.

Nyk Pike

Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2007, 08:30:03 PM »
Well here's some more info.

Golf Course Construction                  $14.9 million
Golf Course Clubhouse and surrounds  $2.5 million
Financing costs                               $1.4 million
Design Fees                                    $1.3 million
County Project Management              $0.6 million
TOTAL                                          $20.7 million

In building the course each of the 240 acres that the course sits on needed to be handled. Prior mining operations had left the land scarred and in a state that was severely out of balance with nature. During the construction 1.5 million cubic yards of sand were trucked to a southern portion of the site, screened, and used to cap the course after shaping.

There has been some resistance from the community to the project and it's success. I believe that communal self esteem is low in the area historically. Tacoma, University Place and the southern Puget Sound region has been passed over for Seattle in numerous projects. Most notably the western terminus for the railroad. University Place is so named for their desire to lure University of Puget Sound to the community and it got passed over for Tacoma. The communal skepticism is something I don't understand. The golf course will bring a glowing spotlight to the region.

Mr. Cosgrove mentions the fact that some people believe that this is a county project run by outsiders for outsiders. I was born and raised in Seattle. I moved to Bandon in 2000 to be part of a revolution in golf. I applied and accepted the position at Chambers Bay because of my desire to continue that revolution in my home area.. I have family that surround the community, from Olympia and Lacey to Puyallup, Des Moines and the greater Seattle area. Kristin Wells, Sales and Marketing Director, is a University Place girl through and through. She grew up in UP, educated in UP, a Curtis HS grad and is raising her family here. Brent Zepp, First Assistant Professional, is a Tacoma General baby. He has stayed close to the region and has spent the last 9 years with Oki Golf, a regional golf course owner. Zepper is out of his skin psyched to see links golf in his backyard. Anthony Shipman , Food and Beverage Director, was raised on the Olympic Peninsula and is a UW-Tacoma Grad. He comes to us from the hotspot Asado's. Joseph Wisocki, General Manager, leads Chambers Bay with his years of experience in opening facilities. In his 8 years with KemperSports, Joe has managed the opening of 4 facilities. Joe constantly reminds us that he has a family now and doesn't want to move them again. He loves where he is and tells us we'll have to wheel him out of here toes first. Joe was drawn to Chambers Bay because of the potential of the facility and his appreciation of links golf.

It is the desire of each and everyone of us to be an active and responsible part of our community. I look forward to the first Chambers Bay Evans scholar. I am jazzed that my course has a public trail through it. I rest well at night knowing that the super "gets it" and smiles when he talks of the ball bounding across the turf. These are all parts of my excitement.

There has also been a lot of talk of Chambers Bay copying Bandon Dunes. That is an impossible task. Pierce County has definitely taken inspiration from Bandon Dunes with the type of course and the walking only approach, but comparisons are impossible. Bandon Dunes was built with one man's vision in mind, Mr. Keiser's. Chambers Bay was built by the public for the public with communal benefit the goal. I am proud to be a part of that vision.

Please feel free to contact me for any other questions. I'll try to check in every few days and answer any.

Living a dream-
Nyk

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2007, 08:37:42 PM »
Thanks for the very informative post Nyk. Looking forward to meeting you.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2007, 10:24:29 PM »
Nyk,

I've known you for quite a few years, through my yearly visits to Bandon.  Congratulations on the great opportunity in your home area.  I'm sure you will make the most of it.

Jim Colton

Re:Talk about Chambers Bay, wow!
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2007, 10:58:22 PM »
Website looks great.  I love the green sketches (some elaborate, some back of the envelope).

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back