[Bill Gayne]

This picture was posted by Aiden on the Sandy Hill thread and it's a beautiful image. I know nothing about the golf course or the hole with the exception of the picture below.

I would like to hear other opinions on the two bunkers behind the green which appear in the picture to be blind to the player.

My immediate reaction was negative I think out of my bias against blind hazards. But the more I thought about it I waivered on the bunkers. It's links golf and the front of the green appears wide open and should be receptive to the ground game which would allow the player to play short and only the errant shot would be penalized. Also my bias is against blind hazards is through the green. These blind hazards are beyond the green.

Any other thoughts? Has anybody played the hole and are the bunkers truly blind or is there an elevation change that reveals the bunkers?

 

[Garland Bayley]

What about the bunker on the side of the green which appears to be even more blind than the bunkers in front of the green?

Remember, they are only blind once!

I have no problem with the bunkers. It is the narrow fairway that bothers me.

[Sean_A]

I like blind bunkers.  I can take them much more easily over blind, harsh rough or agua because one can find the ball and move on.  Sure its a bad break, but not the end of the fun.  I know traditional dead guy wisdom is if bunkers aren't seen they are ignored, but I think that is a load of hogwash.  I don't know the hole, but it looks like it could be a short par 4 with a spine down the middle of the green.  It seems to me that the land feeds toward all the unseen gathering bunkers.  After one play this is the sort of design element that can really get into a player's head.  To really make the hole complete a bunker up front would be cool, but then there could be one front left - I see the dreaded shadow of what could be a narsty pot bunker.  

Ciao

[Bill Gayne]

Garland,

At first the width of the fairway also struck me as narrow. The green is wider than the fairway. But like Sean, I swagged that it's a short par four. Although this may not be correct because the picture extends to the horizon which standing on level ground is approximately four miles away with the curvature of the earth. So in contrast something 425 yards away would appear close.

[wsmorrison]

It would seem possible that the tee shot landing zone is prior to the mounding and narrow looking fairway.  It appears that it might be wider because of the lack of mounding.  What we can see of the approach fairway flanked by dunes/mounds appears relatively short and the narrowness isn't so offensive if the approach is 180 yards or less.  

I like hidden features in general.  I'm not sure I like the almost vertical slopes facing the green in both rear bunkers.

[Sean_A]

I like hidden features in general.  I'm not sure I like the almost vertical slopes facing the green in both rear bunkers.

Wayne

Those are called pot bunkers.  They should be used more often, not less!

Ciao

[wsmorrison]

Thank you, Sean, I had no idea what they were called
Thank you so much for changing my mind about about small vertical faced bunkers behind greens.  What a concept!  They should be used everywhere and I'll support your efforts to use them more and not less.

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
Always best to play there before drawing too many conclusions from a photo.  Those gathering pots are a great feature and as most know, very commom on links courses.  They really make you think on your approach.  There is more room to play on the golf hole then you think.
Mark

[Brian_Ewen]

This is the par 5 13th at Ballyliffin isnt it ? .

If so , thats a bunker short of the green also , just behind the pin in the photo .

[Brian_Ewen]

[Adam Clayman]

I think it depends on the context.

Wild Horse has a marvelous blind bunker on the downhill easily reachable par 5 14th. In this context it's sort of  a "How do you do" to the first time player who is a bit aggressive on approach. For the experienced, it is clearly in the mind of the golfer, never to blind again.

[Kalen Braley]

So if I get the git of this thread....

It sounds like this course with this type of hole would be a great place to hold the annual "Alzheimers Convention" post-conference-tourney?

[Brian_Ewen]

I like MacKenzie's 17th at Hazlehead .

A wide fairway-ed downhill par 5 that all feeds towards a large deep hidden bunker off the back left of the green .

[Bill Gayne]

Brian,

Thanks for posting the Strokesaver page. I would have never of guessed the hole to be a par five. As with links golf so much of the play would be determined by the wind.

Wayne,

They really need to let you out more often to see features such as these.

[Sean_A]

Thank you, Sean, I had no idea what they were called
Thank you so much for changing my mind about about small vertical faced bunkers behind greens.  What a concept!  They should be used everywhere and I'll support your efforts to use them more and not less.

Wayne Baby

You gotta lighten up.  Have a glass of red ale and contemplate upon the good things in life, perhaps start with humour!  I guess I get marked down because I don't do faces.

Ciao

[wsmorrison]

Sean,

Sorry, I was a bit testy this morning.  All is better after a day out on the golf course with some buddies.  I'll raise a glass and drink to your health and your forgiveness.

I actually highly regard pot bunkers and especially gathering bunkers.  Later in the day, I find that those bunkers behind the green aren't so bad.  Yet I wonder about those who dare to go at the pin and go over being heavily penalized by having the ball roll off the edge and end up at the base of those steep faces.    

[Bill Gayne]

I'm reading "Golf Architecture in America" for the first time and came to this passage:

"There are many glaring errors seen on most of our courses, and one of the commonest mistake is to have a green with a wide opening in front of it, and difficulties nearby, especially beyond the green, or at its far sides; for a man who has fallen short of the green is thereby enabled easily to run his ball up to the pin, whereas the man who has made a bold stroke, possibly lighting on the green with his ball, and running over the green, is given a more difficult lie after a finer effort. To offset this situation, it is advisable in many cases where there are long second shots to a green, to make a fairway beyond the green, so that the man who goes over has t least as good a chance to play back and near the hole as the man who falls short after an indifferent stroke."

I think what Thomas' thoughts on this hole would be are fairly clear. In the chapter on strategy, Thomas writes fairly extensively about the concept of fairway beyond the green yet I rarely see it in practice.

[Sean_A]

I'm reading "Golf Architecture in America" for the first time and came to this passage:

"There are many glaring errors seen on most of our courses, and one of the commonest mistake is to have a green with a wide opening in front of it, and difficulties nearby, especially beyond the green, or at its far sides; for a man who has fallen short of the green is thereby enabled easily to run his ball up to the pin, whereas the man who has made a bold stroke, possibly lighting on the green with his ball, and running over the green, is given a more difficult lie after a finer effort. To offset this situation, it is advisable in many cases where there are long second shots to a green, to make a fairway beyond the green, so that the man who goes over has t least as good a chance to play back and near the hole as the man who falls short after an indifferent stroke."

I think what Thomas' thoughts on this whole would be are fairly clear. In the chapter on strategy, Thomas writes fairly extensively about the concept of fairway beyond the green yet I rarely see it in practice.

Bill

By the same token, Ross rarely made life beyond the green easier than in front.  Keeping the ball between yourself and the flag is an apt motto when playing most Ross courses.  This motto even works at least to some degree on #2.

Ciao

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