[Mike_Young]

I played one of my courses this weekend where the pins had been placed in locations that made for goofy golf.  Pin locations are a critical part of the strategy in the design of a green/hole and when placed improperly can make a course seem unfair...  At our local club I have seen committees place pins in areas that were a joke because they thought it made the course "harder".....
Are we at a point where an architect needs to leave the course in possession of acceptable pin placements and request that others not be used?  Or is that too much to ask?
Does the average person understand how much thought goes into pin positions in an overall design or do they think the entire green is their for them to use as they desire?

[JESII]

Mike,

Sounds like sour grapes on first blush...tell me...

-were the pins placed on a slope steeper than any slope you intended a pin to be placed on? If so, please explain.

-Was the pin too close to the edge of the green? I know there is no USGA rule on this, but rule of thumb is what three paces?

If neither of these were the issue, I'd put the blame on the architect primarily, with minor comon sense marks against the superintendent/crew for not recognizing the problem.

[Dan Kelly]

Does the average person understand how much thought goes into pin positions in an overall design...?

The average person doesn't understand anything!

Which, I'm afraid, is both true and unuseful.

Do architects ever leave owners, supers, etc. with detailed guidance re: pin positions (and bunker maintenance, and rough heights, and green speeds, etc.)?

If not, why not?

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

Sounds like sour grapes on first blush...tell me...

-were the pins placed on a slope steeper than any slope you intended a pin to be placed on? If so, please explain.

-Was the pin too close to the edge of the green? I know there is no USGA rule on this, but rule of thumb is what three paces?

If neither of these were the issue, I'd put the blame on the architect primarily, with minor comon sense marks against the superintendent/crew for not recognizing the problem.

No sour grapes....they were placed on edges where they werte either to close to the slope or near the edge....
I am trying to say that pins are designed and if they are not placed where they are designed then the design is not intact as the arch meant it to be.....does that make sense or I am I overdoing it?
Mike

[Brent Hutto]

Mike,

An impartial observer would probably say that if you put that much preparation into designing fair and interesting pin placements then it ought to be worth documenting and communicating it. Like any other kind of planning or engineering work, if it ain't documented it doesn't exist once the operations guys take over.

But I'm not an impartial observer and to me it's a case of something seeming obvious to you (i.e. that certain places just aren't pinnable) that isn't obvious at all to whoever is making those decisions each day. That's gotta smart a little if you overhear someone complaining about the stupid, unfair greens at such-and-such a course when you put your heart into making the greens excellent.

It's enough to make you understand why so many greens on new courses are flat.

[JESII]

Makes perfect sense Mike, but every pinnable area you 'design in' has an edge around it that should not be used for one reason or another...


What would you think about an ongoing consulting arrangement with the client as a standard part of your compensation from them? Say your fee could be $1,000 flat out, and when your done building the course you have no further say about anything...or, they give you $800 for the design, and $40 every year for 10 years to spend "consulting" on course issues? Which would you choose?

[Joe Hancock]

This isn't an architect's issue, IMO, other than not liking it when an unqualified person is setting pins.

If the pin setter uses a few edges or usable sloped positions, so what? Now, if there's a whole course full of that, then it gets tiresome. My experience is that I, as a superintendent, have to encourage my cup setter(s) to get a little creative on a couple pins for the day, just to add interest. To me, there is nothing worse than the old "pin sheet with 6 pin placements" routine. Yuck.

If the greens committee likes it like that, and it's a private course...no big deal. If it's a public course with an operator who doesn't understand the relationship between course set-up and golfing pleasure and pace, then that's their problem.

Having a staff that really understands golf is the responsibility of the owner/ management. Even at that, this isn't rocket science.

Joe

[Dan Kelly]

My experience is that I, as a superintendent, have to encourage my cup setter(s) to get a little creative on a couple pins for the day, just to add interest.

Bravo!

Rick Shefchik and I have played a LOT of rounds at the public course near which he lives -- and we STILL notice when a hole-cutter has found a good new spot.

Or a bad one -- but only if it's a REALLY bad one.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

I have had the same experience on a couple of occasions.

One can try to leave detailed explanations of what hole locations make sense, but the fact is that the kid who is out cutting holes is not reading the recommendations that morning.  Ultimately, if we are going to design difficult greens, we rely on the course having a well-trained maintenance staff to set the holes ... and sometimes we are disappointed.

It is an important job at some courses and it is disappointing when the club does not pay more attention.  A single bad day can mean that 100 players will go home complaining about how stupid the greens are, and that can cost the course a lot of business.

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

A couple things:

I think pin placement is important at ALL courses, not just some. It's important for different reasons, maybe, but it's still important. For instance, at a course with little architectural merit, the pin placements might be the most significant part of the game, so interest and variety are of the utmost.

The other thing is the common use of kids as cup setters. Many courses "break in" kids one the crew by having them change cups. It's hard work and, at times, tedious. But, I approach it differently. I use more experienced, mature individuals for the task. Not that they might not be young, but they do need to have good golf knowledge and show restraint too. My oldest son, when 16 or 17 y/o, was the best cup setter I ever had. He went to work at Kent CC, and daily received compliments from the members for using places that had rarely been used in the past. More typically, however, my assistant does the cup setting. He has been at the course for 27 years....and he's only 37 now!

Joe

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:

I certainly didn't mean to imply that all courses have poor cup-setters.  At some clubs the greenkeeper himself still does it, and at many others it is the most honored position on the crew.

One of the best I ever knew was an old superintendent who'd lost his job due to alcohol problems and was on the crew at another course as a sort of welfare program.  He knew golf as well as anyone and he set some great holes ... and if he was on a bender you were liable to see some unique ones!

[Kalen Braley]

lol@Toms statement.

I suppose the same could apply to a similar course if the pin setters wife has been "cutting him off" at home and he comes into work grumpy.

Does anyone have any humorous or otherwise stories about brutal pin placements?  I think of the Open at Olympic and that pin placement on number 18.  I wanna say that was in '99??  As brutal as it was to watch, I can't imagine trying to actually play that hole with that location.

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

The members at Olympic used to play that hole location on 18 all the time, but they didn't have the green so ridiculously fast.

My worst experience was playing a round of the Renaissance Cup at High Pointe and finding that the superintendent had decided to make it special by using the most difficult hole location on every single green.  I discovered that he did not know where the most difficult pin was on three of the 18 holes, and I never told him.

[TEPaul]

"Are we at a point where an architect needs to leave the course in possession of acceptable pin placements and request that others not be used?  Or is that too much to ask?
Does the average person understand how much thought goes into pin positions in an overall design or do they think the entire green is their for them to use as they desire?"

Mike:

In my opinion, an architect cannot leave too much with the club about his ideas about the course and for the course.

No, I don't think the average person has the vaguest idea how much thought an architect may put into a design and that's why I feel an architect cannot leave too much with the club about his ideas about the course and for the course.

[Kalen Braley]

TE

I think in the case that Tom suggested though about HighPointe, perhaps its best to leave a little mystery and not reveal all the secrets they have to tell.  

[TEPaul]

"TE

I think in the case that Tom suggested though about HighPointe, perhaps its best to leave a little mystery and not reveal all the secrets they have to tell.    

Kalen:

I understand but personally I think if a golf club is prone to screwing up something an architect did that it would be better for the architect to inform the club at the expense of mystery rather than risking them screwing up something that's important.

[Peter Zarlengo]

I would say that we need to define unfair pins before we can talk about the mas elements of design.  What constitutes an unfair pin? I know of many people who would say that if a pin cannot be attacked from all angles or a putt cannot be reasonably made from everywhere that it is unfair.  I would tend to disagree, but isnt unfair subjective?

[Kalen Braley]

To me,

There is only 1 main criteria for this.  Can you putt lag a putt and have it stop somewhere close to the hole within 2 feet.

Other than that, if you miss a green on the high side with a downhill putt and you are screwed, then that is the result of hitting a ball out of position.

[Mike_Young]

I would say that we need to define unfair pins before we can talk about the mas elements of design.  What constitutes an unfair pin? I know of many people who would say that if a pin cannot be attacked from all angles or a putt cannot be reasonably made from everywhere that it is unfair.  I would tend to disagree, but isnt unfair subjective?

I would think pin placement areas are as integral as fairway and tee areas.....we would not dare think of placing the tee markers in an area that was not meant for tee markers on the teeing ground and I would hope one would not cut fairway areas designed for rough and vice versa.....THE ARCHITECT DESIGNS THE PIN AREAS...and just because one decides an area is pinnable does not make it an integral part of the design IMHO.....sure there may be some who say "oh that is on the edge but pinnable...let's put it there...fine but it may compromise the design as intended just as much as moving a tee...

[Art_Schaupeter]

Mike,

I think that pin placements, green speed and green design are all tied together.  All three elements most be working together to highlight the design intent.  The more intricate, or contoured the green surface, the more important the pin placement becomes.  

I have worked with my clients after grow in to develop pin sheets that identify pin locations on each green and also to try and identify a good mix of pin locations on the different greens to ensure that the overall course set up on a given day isn't too difficult or too easy.  I tend to favor contoured greens, so I guess I am a bit sensitive to the possibility of the cup setter getting too over-zealous in his approach, which will leave a bad taste with most golfers.

What would most define as an "unfair" hole location?

[Guy Phelan]

I have never found that a hole location is adequate when the putt is struck and IF it does not go in the hole will come back to the player. That to me is unfair.

If a hole location is close to a ridge on the putting surface, then the player must negotiate his way as to avoid going down the ridge and on to a lower surface of the green.

What else is there?

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

I think that pin placements, green speed and green design are all tied together.  All three elements most be working together to highlight the design intent.  The more intricate, or contoured the green surface, the more important the pin placement becomes.  

I have worked with my clients after grow in to develop pin sheets that identify pin locations on each green and also to try and identify a good mix of pin locations on the different greens to ensure that the overall course set up on a given day isn't too difficult or too easy.  I tend to favor contoured greens, so I guess I am a bit sensitive to the possibility of the cup setter getting too over-zealous in his approach, which will leave a bad taste with most golfers.

What would most define as an "unfair" hole location?

We just started doing same thing this year...an as-built pin placement sheet....I call it unfair if the client chooses to place pins outside these areas.....IMO

[Craig Sweet]

It seems to me that when you go out to cut a hole in the morning you have a green with boundries, and what ever "green" is within those boundries was designed by an architect and ANYWHERE within the designed "green" is fair game for a pin....

Do you blame the greenskeeper when your ball rolls down the fairway and comes to rest on a mound or in a depression that was designed by the architect?

[Jim Sweeney]

Mkke-

Clearly, bad hole locations compromise design intent.

A club here in Cincinnati has suffered for years due to a superintendant who cuts all the holes, and I mean all of them, on severe slopes near the edges of the course's very small greens. The course is fairly short and he does this to "protect the integrity of the course." The effect is in fact justy the opposite; the integrity of the course is compromised.

This practice means that it is almost impossible, in fact rather lucky, to hit a shot near a hole. It also renders the short game somewhat meaningless, as even a well played shot is turned away from the hole.

Of course, one would reasonably ask why this practice has been allowed to go on. It is rumored that it may not go on much longer.

[Mike_Young]

It seems to me that when you go out to cut a hole in the morning you have a green with boundries, and what ever "green" is within those boundries was designed by an architect and ANYWHERE within the designed "green" is fair game for a pin....

Do you blame the greenskeeper when your ball rolls down the fairway and comes to rest on a mound or in a depression that was designed by the architect?

Craig,
We just have to agree to disagree on that one.
Mike

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