[Mark_Rowlinson]

Did Stanley Thompson put Canadian courses on the map, or were there many decent courses before he came along?

[Tyler Kearns]

Mark,

H.S. Colt and Donald Ross were active in Canada before Thompson truly left his mark on the Canadian landscape. Colt's work at Hamilton & Toronto pre-dates Thompson career as a golf architect, while Ross was working here just as Thompson was venturing into the field, completing Rosedale & Essex in the Toronto-Windsor region. Ross actually worked at Banff before Thompson redesigned the golf course. Before heading out west to Alberta in 1919, Ross stopped in Winnipeg where three clubs (Pine Ridge, Elmhurst and St. Charles) enagaged in his services, and all are considered strong golf courses. That same year, Willie Park Jr. was laying out Southwood and redesigning Winnipeg GC.

Hopefully the trio of Andrew/Mingay/Thompson will chime in with more precision regarding existing courses in the Ontario region.

TK

[Ryan Crago]

Tyler,

Do you know how much Ross actually did at Banff before Thompson came in?

[Tyler Kearns]

Mark,

A.V. Macan designed Royal Colwood in 1913, likely the best course in the province until Thompson completed Capilano in the 1930's.

TK

[Tyler Kearns]

Ryan,

I think Ross redesigned the existing 9-hole course at Banff ~ which Thompson subsequently redid and extended to 18-holes. I do know from Brad Klein's biography of Ross, that Thompson left one of his par-threes intact.

TK

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tyler, Thanks.  How intact are the Colt courses in Hamilton and Toronto?  I should ask the same question about Ross's work, too.

[Paul Stephenson]

Wille Park Jr. also completed Weston in 1915.

Royal Ottawa and Lambton also pre-date Thompson, but I do not know who designed them.  I'm sure the trio knows who the respective designers were.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark
in the "My Opinion" section, there's the "best courses in Canada" piece. It isn't a chronological list, and Thompson courses feature prominently (and frequently) but I think it might answer some of your questions, as it lists architects, dates, and current conditions...

Peter

[Tyler Kearns]

Mark,

I do not know enough about Hamilton or Toronto to hazard a guess as to how intact they are, but I am sure Ian, Jeff or Robert will know.

As far as Ross' work in Winnipeg, quite a bit remains, but sadly has been altered. All three courses existed prior to Ross' involvement, and his work consisted of redesigning 9 holes at St. Charles and 18 holes at Pine Ridge, and redesigning 9 and expanding Elmhurst to 18 holes. Bill Newcomb re-worked St. Charles and Elmhurst in the 1990's, and Les Furber altered 4 greens at Pine Ridge during the same decade, and it remains the most preserved of Ross' work. Both Elmhurst and St. Charles have engaged the help of architects who have strong records of restoration, in Ron Prichard and Mike DeVries respectively. I would say Elmhurst has about 12/18 intact holes, and 14/18 original greens, while St. Charles has roughly 6/9 holes intact, and 4/9 original greens.

TK

[Wayne_Kozun]

George Cumming was the long-time pro at Toronto Golf Club and had a hand and many courses in Toronto from about 1900-1930 in the pre-Thompson era.

My club, Scarboro, was originally a Cumming design that was reworked by Tillinghast in the mid 20s.  Tillie did other work in Canada but the other couple of courses that he worked on are now gone.

Willie Park Jr. did more in Canada than just Weston.  A.V. Macan also did other courses in BC as well as Washington state.

[Bob Jenkins]

Victoria Golf Club, which dates from 1893, is represented as the second oldest course in North America still on its original site (behind Shinnecock) and the oldest course west of the Mississippi. I believe Gearhart in Oregon opened at about the same time. It is an incredibly funky old couse in a gorgeous setting, jutting out on a  peninsula in Juan De Fuca Straight.

Website at www.victoriagolf.com has lots of info and I have the history of the club at home. I thought A.V. Macan was the architect but on looking at the site it was originally laid out by the members and a later redesign in the early 20th century ws by A.S.G. Musgrave. That name does not ring a bell. Macan was certainly active in this area. I believe that in addition to Royal Colwood he also designed Broadmoor in Seattle.

Macan would certainly be among the earliest working on the west coast. I will check the club history and see if there is more info.

Bob Jenkins

[Ian Andrew]

Mark,

Hamilton is mostly intact except a series of alterations beginning at #13 (new hole) and #15 (new green site). There are quite a few rebuilt greens by McBroom and by Clark. Bunkering has been altered to a more modern style. Worth playing - top 100 after all!

Toronto GC is again mostly intact witha few new greens by Watson (#2 and...), altered holes by Alison #13 (green site) and #14 (new tees), and a new 14th green by Rene M. The bunkering is still largely intact, much like the course and is one of my favourites in Canada.

Banff the 6th hole (old routing) is in the same place as a hole Ross built.

Willie Park Jr built a lot of great courses that still survive. There are 6 in Montreal alone - and Weston in Toronto is pretty good (interestingly Alison added the bunkers after Park went home due to illness). Weston originated in 1915, but the current course was from 1922. I have pictures of the older course!

Willie built Calgary G&CC which is another standout, Ottawa Hunt (renovated to much) , etc. There are lots of great examples of his work around - he was quite prolific in canada and maintained an office in Toronto.

As Wayne said George Cumming was quite good and does not receive the credit he deserves for many good layouts. Others include Percy Barrett and Bill Kinnear who are responsible for some fine courses that are lesser known due to geography.

Bendelow did Royal Ottawa (remodelled by Park) and Rosedale (remodelled by Ross) among many early layouts. Others like Tillinghast (3 courses), Travis (3 courses), Strong (at least 2 I know of) Ross (tons), Mackenzie (1 nine) all visited the country and left their mark.

Thompson built around 95 courses and that is why his influence is so strong - that and his work was damned good too.

I'm missing lots like the Murray Brothers who also produced some fine work....I'm rambling at this point.

Ian

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Everybody,  Thank you for opening my eyes!  Clearly I need to do some study on Canada!  Are there any books I should try to acquire?  

[wsmorrison]

In 1891 or 1892, the head golf professional from Royal Montreal, Willie Davis, visited Shinnecock Hills to lay out their golf course.  Does anyone know what Royal Montreal was like at that time?  If Shinnecock Hills was made to look something like Royal Montreal, it may have looked something like these early photos of Shinnecock Hills:

[Gary Slatter]

Mark,

Hamilton is mostly intact except a series of alterations beginning at #13 (new hole) and #15 (new green site). There are quite a few rebuilt greens by McBroom and by Clark. Bunkering has been altered to a more modern style. Worth playing - top 100 after all!

Toronto GC is again mostly intact witha few new greens by Watson (#2 and...), altered holes by Alison #13 (green site) and #14 (new tees), and a new 14th green by Rene M. The bunkering is still largely intact, much like the course and is one of my favourites in Canada.

Banff the 6th hole (old routing) is in the same place as a hole Ross built.

Willie Park Jr built a lot of great courses that still survive. There are 6 in Montreal alone - and Weston in Toronto is pretty good (interestingly Alison added the bunkers after Park went home due to illness). Weston originated in 1915, but the current course was from 1922. I have pictures of the older course!

Willie built Calgary G&CC which is another standout, Ottawa Hunt (renovated to much) , etc. There are lots of great examples of his work around - he was quite prolific in canada and maintained an office in Toronto.

As Wayne said George Cumming was quite good and does not receive the credit he deserves for many good layouts. Others include Percy Barrett and Bill Kinnear who are responsible for some fine courses that are lesser known due to geography.

Bendelow did Royal Ottawa (remodelled by Park) and Rosedale (remodelled by Ross) among many early layouts. Others like Tillinghast (3 courses), Travis (3 courses), Strong (at least 2 I know of) Ross (tons), Mackenzie (1 nine) all visited the country and left their mark.

Thompson built around 95 courses and that is why his influence is so strong - that and his work was damned good too.

I'm missing lots like the Murray Brothers who also produced some fine work....I'm rambling at this point.

Ian

Ian, did Rene and Charley Muylaert do any work that you would consider "good"? I thought Nobelton Lakes had potential.

[Robert Thompson]

In 1891 or 1892, the head golf professional from Royal Montreal, Willie Davis, visited Shinnecock Hills to lay out their golf course.  Does anyone know what Royal Montreal was like at that time?  If Shinnecock Hills was made to look something like Royal Montreal, it may have looked something like these early photos of Shinnecock Hills:

Wayne: I think the Dixie Course, which was extensively remodeled by Park, was likely quirky and quite good. It had at least one hole where you had to play very near railway tracks on one green.

As to Mark's original question -- there's plenty worth seeing in Canada. If one only sought out the big five Thompson courses -- Highlands, St. George's, Banff, Jasper and Capilano -- they'd certainly see the country's highlights from its greatest designer.

More recent work, by Carrick and McBroom, have their moments, as well as Blackhawk by Rod Whitman near Edmonton.

[Gerry B]

ian:

did bendelow not have something to do with calgary golf club as well? the pro told me he did but did not know how much is park and how much is bendelow.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Everybody,  Thank you for opening my eyes!  Clearly I need to do some study on Canada!  Are there any books I should try to acquire?  

Golf in Canada by Jim Barclay, which is a large encyclopaedia-like tome, would probably be what I would recommend although it doesn't spend too much time on architecture it does have the history of the early clubs and who designed them.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Wayne, Thank you for the book suggestion.

Was the original Shinnecock SO geometric?  I know the early inland courses in the UK were geometric, and that they were develoments such as Woking, Sunningdale and Alwoodley which demonstrated that inland golf could look like it did at the seaside, but this is like umpteen centuries of artists who has no concept of perspective.  You can't understand that they didn't have it.  How could they have been so blind?  But they were.  How could early golf course designers/constructors not recognise the lack of similarity with what they apparently knew elsewhere?

[Jeff_Mingay]

It seems there wasn't much before Colt showed up in Toronto, and returned to Hamilton a couple years later. His work at Toronto and Ancaster (as Hamilton is affectionately referred to) set a new standard for course architecture in Canada.

It's interesting though that an immigrant Irishman (called Macan) laid-out a very good course, at Colwood, about the same time. Colt's Toronto course was completed in 1911, I think. Hamilton two years later. Colwood is 1913 as well.

Macan was a renaissance man, like Colt. Colwood set a new standard for golf architecture in the Pacific Northwest. In fact, it was the 1922 Pacific Northwest Amateur, hosted at Colwood, that really launched Macan's career as a golf course designer.

When golfers from throughout the region experienced Macan's design there, they all wanted one! (Colwood is an excellent course... with a little restorative-based work it could be even better.)

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Jeff, Am I right in thinking that Colwood is a Royal course?  I know of Royal Montreal.  Are there other Royal courses in Canada?

[Robert Thompson]

Mark: Royal Ottawa, Royal Quebec, Royal Montreal, Royal Colwood, and most recently, Royal Mayfair. I think that's the full list of "real" Royal courses in Canada. Off them, hard to say which is the strongest -- it isn't that great a list of golf.

Royal Montreal has had a Reesmodeled. Royal Mayfair got Les Furber to do a bad Pete Dye on a good Stanley Thompson. Royal Ottawa is quite good, by all accounts, as is Colwood, and I'm not familiar with Royal Quebec.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mark,

Colwood is an official Royal course. So are Royal Montreal, Royal Regina, Royal Ottawa, and Royal Quebec.  

Funny, St. George's (Toronto) was originally called Royal York... not an official designation!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Royal Mayfair?!

You've got to be kidding me, Rob. What could have prompted that?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Rob,

Of the official Royals in Canada, Colwood is BY FAR the best course.

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